License opinion query

[Manuel]

You are welcome,
We are happy and available to start new collaboration and consider new plugins game oriented.
In my opinion, using makehuman as a character editor is a good choice, because indeed IT'S a very advanced character editor.
Also it will be good for mutual promotion.
Don't hesitate to ask for more info or explanations.

There are many fields where a game developer can help us, for example the improvement of realtime shaders, the optimizations for external game engine, etc..

[joepal]

Anyway, if you want to play around with stuff inside MH to get to understand it, I'd suggest starting by looking at the plugins. Then you won't need to directly change the MH source code.

And if you want to use another language than python: Well, as long as you can write a thin layer as a python module this should not be impossible. There's no practical restriction for what you can put in a module and python is very permissive with what it accepts running.

http://www.mono-project.com/docs/about-mono/languages/ (looking in python section, there are suggestions for bridging python and .net for example)

[ingeras82]

Apparently I declared the thread closed to early . Using Makehuman as the character editor raises some other questions (mainly blender tools related). I would like to go through a few cases:
1) User installs the game (closed-source) and is presented with the option of downloading Makehuman as character editor. He installs it and exports a character. The export should be CC0 in this case. The game searches the My documents folder (or /home/...) and loads the characters saved there to be available for playing. The game can be close-source. I think this one should be pretty straight forward.

2) Based on case 1), but this time, I would like to present the user with a library of created assets, for example a ponytail hairstyle, an uniform, etc. This assets should be created using Makeclothes by me. I'm not very certain where those fall. I've found something regarding this: http://bugtracker.makehuman.org/issues/141.
a)So if I use the helpers (for the uniform for example) the result is AGPL. Using this AGPL asset in Makehuman for the final character (export), makes it also AGPL? or it remains CC0?
b) Suppose I provide my own mesh (for the hairstyle) the mhclo file generated (so it can be used in Makehuman) is AGPL and we fall back to 2)a.?

3) Based on case 2) but regarding targets and Maketarget. Again there are 2 cases:
a) I create a target using the base mesh -> the target file is AGPL. I then use this new target in Makehuman (I have to figure out how - let's leave that aside for the moment). The generated export is AGPL or CC0?
b) I create a target for the hairstyle ( I'm not sure it can be done in Maketarget... but let's discuss this case). The original hairstyle mesh was supplied by me and the target is also sculpted by me. The resulting target file is AGPL or CC0? Anyway, saying it's AGPL we fall back to 3)a.

4) Let's say we safely made it through the first 3 steps and the export is still CC0. Suppose I need a special bone for the hairstyle. I need to parent it to the head and position it relative to the parent. Also I need to add some vertex groups and weights to the hairstyle. There are 2 ways that come to my mind I can achieve this:
a) Join the Mh team and add a plugin that alows this kind of customization. The character will be CC0;
b) Create a custom format file linked to the ponytail asset/proxy. After the character is exported (supposing it is still CC0), upon import in the game, the custom script is applied which adds the bone to the ponytail, parents it and places it where it should be. Shortly, I would modify the exported content. Would this waive the CC0 exemption?

It's a long post , but I need to go through all this cases.
*Later edit: originally, instead of ponytail hairstyle I used a pistol example, but I realized it was a very poor example and non-scaling objects should be handled externally.

[Manuel]

Apparently I declared the thread closed to early . Using Makehuman as the character editor raises some other questions (mainly blender tools related). I would like to go through a few cases:
1) User installs the game (closed-source) and is presented with the option of downloading Makehuman as character editor. He installs it and exports a character. The export should be CC0 in this case. The game searches the My documents folder (or /home/...) and loads the characters saved there to be available for playing. The game can be close-source. I think this one should be pretty straight forward.

Yes.

2) Based on case 1), but this time, I would like to present the user with a library of created assets, for example a ponytail hairstyle, an uniform, etc. This assets should be created using Makeclothes by me. I'm not very certain where those fall. I've found something regarding this: http://bugtracker.makehuman.org/issues/141.
a)So if I use the helpers (for the uniform for example) the result is AGPL. Using this AGPL asset in Makehuman for the final character (export), makes it also AGPL? or it remains CC0?
b) Suppose I provide my own mesh (for the hairstyle) the mhclo file generated (so it can be used in Makehuman) is AGPL and we fall back to 2)a.?

MakeClothes usually don't use AGPL'd data. The script is AGPL, but his output is completely your (assuming you are the original author). It's like export an obj from Blender. The exporter code is GPL, but the obj is your.
So as (C) holder you can release it as CC0 and then make a little "expansion pack" for the official MH. In that case the output will be CC0.
The thing is different if the clothes derive from the helpers, that are AGPL'd. In that case the clothes will be affected by AGPL too.

3) Based on case 2) but regarding targets and Maketarget. Again there are 2 cases:
a) I create a target using the base mesh -> the target file is AGPL. I then use this new target in Makehuman (I have to figure out how - let's leave that aside for the moment). The generated export is AGPL or CC0?
b) I create a target for the hairstyle ( I'm not sure it can be done in Maketarget... but let's discuss this case). The original hairstyle mesh was supplied by me and the target is also sculpted by me. The resulting target file is AGPL or CC0? Anyway, saying it's AGPL we fall back to 3)a.

MakeTarget uses AGPL'd data, so his output is AGPL'd too.
The AGPL exception in MH license says: "As a special exception, the copyright holders of the data (MHteam) states that the output is under the terms of CC0 1.0 Universal."
As any exception, it's not viral. It's valid only for things released officially from MakeHuman.org, under the control of the copyright holders (MHteam).
So if your new targets are part of official package: they are exported as CC0.
On the contrary they remain as exported from MakeTarget: AGPL (and so the exported character will be AGPL'd too)

4) Let's say we safely made it through the first 3 steps and the export is still CC0. Suppose I need a special bone for the hairstyle. I need to parent it to the head and position it relative to the parent. Also I need to add some vertex groups and weights to the hairstyle. There are 2 ways that come to my mind I can achieve this:
a) Join the Mh team and add a plugin that alows this kind of customization. The character will be CC0;
b) Create a custom format file linked to the ponytail asset/proxy. After the character is exported (supposing it is still CC0), upon import in the game, the custom script is applied which adds the bone to the ponytail, parents it and places it where it should be. Shortly, I would modify the exported content. Would this waive the CC0 exemption?

As seen above, depending some variables, the output can be CC0 or AGPL.
If it's CC0, it can stay CC0. If it's AGPL, it must be AGPL'd, as derived product.

[ingeras82]

Ithink I've got most of the things cleared, only one remark regarding the targets. As usual, I found the relevant page after I posted the questions : http://www.makehuman.org/doc/node/exter ... cense.html. In here it says:

MakeTarget scripts for Blender is distributed under the GNU AGPL 3. The MakeHuman morph target files that it generates are per default not covered by any license, since they are designed by you. However, if you make a morph target based on another pre-existing morph target (or a combination of pre-existing morph targets) you must fulfill the license terms of the pre-existing morph target.

You said:

MakeTarget uses AGPL'd data, so his output is AGPL'd too.
The AGPL exception in MH license says: "As a special exception, the copyright holders of the data (MHteam) states that the output is under the terms of CC0 1.0 Universal."
As any exception, it's not viral. It's valid only for things released officially from MakeHuman.org, under the control of the copyright holders (MHteam).

For me at least, the formulation on the page is quite confusing as I understand only targets derived from pre-existing morph targets are AGPL. Let's take yet another example: if I start from the base mesh and make a morph-to-werewolf target under what license the target file would be (supposing I distribute the file myself and it is not included in the official Makehuman install)?

[Manuel]

For me at least, the formulation on the page is quite confusing as I understand only targets derived from pre-existing morph targets are AGPL.

Yes, we should modify it. But from legal point of view it's too vague to define when and how much a target is derived from another target, and since all targets are certainly derived from a modification of the base mesh, that's AGPL, we should assume all targets are naturally AGPL'd too.

[ingeras82]

Ok, a recap:
- I create an "expansion pack" of content -> clothes originated from my own meshes. The mhclo and obj files are CC0. The user is presented with the option of downloading official Makehuman and creating CC0 characters using Makehuman and then the closed-source game can import them and do extra operations (add bones, reparent bones and so on) if needed. One question would be if the CC0 clothes obj and mhclo can also be loaded by the closed-source game directly, not via Makehuman? To be exact: I load the shoes after I import the bare-foot mhx.
Regarding the targets:
-in my case not being able to use custom targets wouldn't be a show-stopper. But on the larger picture I think it is restricting other artist from contributing their own targets. I understand the reasoning behind the AGPL licensing (someone could tweak a bit the original targets and claim they're theirs). A possible solution would be to be able to generate CC0 content using AGPL custom targets only via official Makehuman. That is: I create a custom AGPL target, I load it in official Makehuman and the generated content is CC0. This way, Makehuman cannot be circumvented. I honestly don't know how could this be put in licensing terms . Anyway, it's just an idea.

[ingeras82]

Hello again. I've made some progress in making the mhx importer. I've got a few more license related questions:
1) I would like my importer to have a relevant name (it should include Makehuman somewhere). I've got an idea, but I would like to check it with you guys to see if you are ok with it and I don't infringe on any copyright on the Makehuman title. Is this the right place to discuss it or should I send an email?
2) From Manuel's latest posts I understood that you should provide your own meshes for the clothes to not be AGPL.
My question would be: If I export a fully clothed (including eyes, hair, teeth, proxymesh) character from the official Makehuman using the clothes/proxies/proxymeshes included in the downloaded package, the whole export file is CC0 or only the Body mesh?
To be more clear: the HighPolyEyes are AGPL or CC0 if they are included in an export made from official Makehuman using the official proxies?
3) Can I use clothes/proxies included in the official Makehuman to create a full character for a presentation video for my importer and post it on Youtube?

[Manuel]

Hello again. I've made some progress in making the mhx importer. I've got a few more license related questions:
1) I would like my importer to have a relevant name (it should include Makehuman somewhere). I've got an idea, but I would like to check it with you guys to see if you are ok with it and I don't infringe on any copyright on the Makehuman title. Is this the right place to discuss it or should I send an email?

You can also send a pm to me.
Anyway I suggest you to don't spend much time on the mhx importer. Our main formats in future will be collada and fbx.
Mhx is going to be dropped. Thomas has decided to develop a new format called mhx2, but it's not officially supported by us, because rely on some abandoned features:
http://www.makehuman.org/blog/mhx2_make ... mat_2.html

My question would be: If I export a fully clothed (including eyes, hair, teeth, proxymesh) character from the official Makehuman using the clothes/proxies/proxymeshes included in the downloaded package, the whole export file is CC0 or only the Body mesh?

All CC0.

3) Can I use clothes/proxies included in the official Makehuman to create a full character for a presentation video for my importer and post it on Youtube?

Yes.

[duststorm]

2) If I export a fully clothed (including eyes, hair, teeth, proxymesh) character from the official Makehuman using the clothes/proxies/proxymeshes included in the downloaded package, the whole export file is CC0 or only the Body mesh?
To be more clear: the HighPolyEyes are AGPL or CC0 if they are included in an export made from official Makehuman using the official proxies?

Just like the basemesh, the output mesh is CC0, that goes for the clothes too (the ones that come with MakeHuman, if someone else shared his clothing and decided to release it, for example, under CC-BY-SA then you have to credit the original author, even for the output result).
But just like the targets data, the data contained in the proxy file, that makes MakeHuman able to fit the clothing to any character, is AGPL licensed.

In other words, if you use the exported mesh data only, then it is CC0. So you can use MH clothes and modify them to create your own assets as much as you want.
But if you use the proxy fitting data in your software, or try to reverse engineer the proxy data from the exported mesh (similar to targets), then you are working with AGPL'ed data and you will have to license your software accordingly.