Difficult to model Asian features

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Difficult to model Asian features

Postby blindsaypatten » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:31 pm

I'm finding it quite difficult to model typical Asian features, especially eye features. I think the central issus is that Asian eyes are considerably less recessed than Caucasian eyes and makehuman doesn't really model that. In Caucasians the top of the eye socket extends further outward and downward than in Asians:
SkullVariations.jpg

This results in a relatively recessed eye:
CaucasianProfile.jpg

versus:
AsianProfile.jpg


The difference is very visible in the front view where in Asians the brow is much higher above the eye than in Caucasians, and there often isn't any visible eyelid fold:
YookSungJaeSemiProfile.jpg

AsianFront1.jpg
AsianFront1.jpg (10.63 KiB) Viewed 6010 times


It seems to me that one can't really produce a realistic Asian face with the built-in functionality in makehuman, although I would be very pleased if I've just missed something.

I am interested in whether this is a known problem and/or accepted limitation before I contemplate whether I want to make an attempt at addressing it.
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Re: Difficult to model Asian features

Postby CallHarvey3d » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:40 pm

is it true that Caucasian eyes are more recessed or that Asians have a shallower nasal bone? I believe it's the latter. i dont mean to argue i'm just thinking that takeing the nose back will help you more than bringing the eyesockets forward
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Re: Difficult to model Asian features

Postby CallHarvey3d » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:08 pm

i didnt spend a ton of time on this i think with some tweaking you could do pretty well. one issue is "asian" is pretty broad, i think there's some pretty distinct regional features (northern china very different from Japanese) that in the right combinations give you good results but when mixed incorrectly could contradict each other and "muddy" your result. narrow down the look region you want to achieve first. i put the macro asian slider to 100%, i scaled the nose width down a little, flared the nostrils a little, squared the chin and jaw a touch, shallowed the brow, lifted the cheekbones and made them a touch heavier. the only tricky thing i did was use a couple custom targets i think jujube made to help nose definition and nose/cheek transition. if i did more it would be to deflate and define the lips
http://www.makehumancommunity.org/targe ... nding.html
http://www.makehumancommunity.org/targe ... sharp.html

heres a couple more that might really help
http://www.makehumancommunity.org/targe ... othen.html
http://www.makehumancommunity.org/targe ... rease.html
Attachments
asian.jpg
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Re: Difficult to model Asian features

Postby joepal » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:23 pm

Yes, there are numerous cases where specific features might be difficult to model using only the targets which are bundled with MH.

If you have specific needs, you will probably want to construct custom targets using the MakeTarget tool.
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Re: Difficult to model Asian features

Postby blindsaypatten » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:21 am

I really appreciate your help on this CallHarvey3D. I agree there that there is enormous variation in "Asian" faces, both regionally and within regions. However the higher brow resulting in separation of they eye and brow is practically a defining feature which is pretty much universal over most of Asia.

Consider these two images, the original, and one photoshopped to reduce the height of the brows.
Image
AsianFront1Photoshopped1.jpg
AsianFront1Photoshopped1.jpg (10.64 KiB) Viewed 5997 times


What I am trying to get at is that if one wants to produce an Asian-looking character one can use various stereotypical Asian features in makehuman to get something that looks more Asian than Caucasian. But if you want to produce a model with relatively non-descript features, like the first of these two images, that still looks Asian, I don't think you can get there with the built-in functionality, and if there are community assets that will do it I would love to find out about them rather than have to attempt it myself.

To summarize it another way, if your goal is to produce an accurate sculptural portrait of an actual person, the built-in functionality in makehuman won't let you do it if the person is Asian. I haven't tried it with an ordinary looking Caucasian yet, I'll probably try before too long.

CallHarvey3d wrote:i didnt spend a ton of time on this i think with some tweaking you could do pretty well. one issue is "asian" is pretty broad, i think there's some pretty distinct regional features (northern china very different from Japanese) that in the right combinations give you good results but when mixed incorrectly could contradict each other and "muddy" your result. narrow down the look region you want to achieve first. i put the macro asian slider to 100%, i scaled the nose width down a little, flared the nostrils a little, squared the chin and jaw a touch, shallowed the brow, lifted the cheekbones and made them a touch heavier. the only tricky thing i did was use a couple custom targets i think jujube made to help nose definition and nose/cheek transition. if i did more it would be to deflate and define the lips
http://www.makehumancommunity.org/targe ... nding.html
http://www.makehumancommunity.org/targe ... sharp.html

heres a couple more that might really help
http://www.makehumancommunity.org/targe ... othen.html
http://www.makehumancommunity.org/targe ... rease.html
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Re: Difficult to model Asian features

Postby jujube » Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:20 am

@callharvey3d:

I have an inverse of my "eyes in" target that may be of use here. I'll upload it to the repo.

I want to do a better version of the eye corner crease, too. In general, something about the makehuman eye geometry kind of bugs me. It tends to be too oval shaped IMO.

(Manuellab's models seem to have better looking eyes, but comparing the MH default human with an average I made of the manlab base heads, the differences were actually really subtle. I'm not enough of an artist/anatomy expert to figure out what's going on here. But real eyes have more folds in them that MH doesn't have high enough poly count to capture. I've been thinking that multires sculpt --> baking onto the makeup masque, I could capture those details.. but then I'd need to learn how to sculpt.)

I wanted to go farther with defining the crease on the nostril wings, but it's tricky since things tend to get weird and triangular in that region of the nose when you stretch things too much. (Manuel's topology has an extra edge loop there to define the crease. It also has the edge loops around the eyes converge in a diamond shape on the outer corners, instead of the continuous loops we have in MH.)

edit: Things also get weird when you make the nose shallower on the asian mesh. The nose starts to become concave...
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Re: Difficult to model Asian features

Postby CallHarvey3d » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:06 pm

yea it's definitely an effort that pushes the limits of the topology. ontop of that you need to use a dozen or more overlapping adjustments and in my experience layering too many morphs/blendshapes leads to awkwardness. it will take another dozen custom targets to fix the problems the layered adjustments are making. i would guess the only real way to do it right with existing topology is to create one specific target to layer ontop of the macro asian that pushes it to a specific appearance (Japanese,Korean,etc). it would be a fun project but im pretty bogged down at the moment. if no one gets to it before i do ill take a crack at it in a couple weeks when i get back into targets and topologies
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Re: Difficult to model Asian features

Postby joepal » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:47 pm

Or you could create a new topology, if the existing one doesn't fit. The workflow is not much different from making clothes, and you could use the base mesh as a starting point and modify that.
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Re: Difficult to model Asian features

Postby CallHarvey3d » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:21 pm

thats something i would like to do but my skills arent up to par yet. there are a couple spots i would like to tweak, add, remove polygons and such but im not great with blender and still on the learning curve in setting up vertex groups and stuff. ive been playing with anthropomorphic models with tails and wings. i think as of just yesterday i have a plan for vert groups that will work better. ill get there eventually.
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Re: Difficult to model Asian features

Postby blindsaypatten » Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:59 pm

I created a target to raise the eyebrow:
BrowRaise.png

and another to increase the thickness of the eyelid, which is applied to the eye on the right above.

But what I quickly realized was that the eyebrow (hair) and the eyebrow ridge (bone) seem to be misaligned. The eyebrows are attached to the mesh well below the part of the mesh that is manipulated by the eyebrow bulge and eyebrow move vert controls:
BrowLineVsEyeBrow.png

So they eyebrows (hair) don't rise when the eyebrow (bone) move vert is raised. I think this means regardless of race I have to produce either my own set of eyebrows (hair) or produce different brow ridge targets, if I want to use both at the same time, right?

And to get all my whining out in one go, the lower eyelid shape when you put the Asian control on the main panel to 100% is anatomically impossible. Looking at the first image above you can see that the lower eyelid is a flat horizontal line from the inside corner of the eye out to the outer edge of the iris, at which point it makes makes a sharp turn (as opposed to a slow curve) up to the outer corner of the eye. The latter segment is actually convex upward. The lower eyelid will always be a single smooth curve with no internal corners on any human eye.

I'm sorry if I sound overly critical, makehuman is really great and very useful.
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