Updated shoulder/arm deformation test

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Moderator: joepal

Updated shoulder/arm deformation test

Postby joepal » Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:32 pm

These tests were made with blender 33608 and MH 1621 (MHX importer script taken from MH svn).

Three general comments:

  • The constraints really play up in interpolations between extreme poses (which can be seen in the animation).
  • The extreme characters (2 & 3) kukar ur the constraints seriously. Several poses which are possible with the vanilla character are not possible at all with these characters. Especially the fat guy seems to have seriously twisted default limbs which are not possible to bend as expected.
  • Very strange things happen to MHX characters when you append several chars into the same scene. This can be seen for example on the eyes on char 1 & 3. Is this something due to logics in MHX or python memory corruption in blender?

Image

Youtube anim: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2rx0QC_qeo
Full divx render: http://www.jwp.se/files/shoulderanim2.avi

The constraints comments from the previous shoulder test post remain valid.
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Re: Updated shoulder/arm deformation test

Postby workinprogress » Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:43 am

Thanks for posting the animations.
Nice to see how things are progressing. It's looking better.
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Re: Updated shoulder/arm deformation test

Postby ThomasL » Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:53 pm

Thanks Joel. Your videos make it really clear when the constraints kick in. I knew of course that deformation looks bad on extreme characters, but I didn't realize that the constraints depend on the character. It is of course impossible for a fat person to bend the limbs much, but that is because the body is in the way and not really a skeleton thing.

The worst deformation is with Arm up. That is really an impossible pose; I don't think you can raise the arm much above 90 degrees. Further rotation than that has to be done with the shoulder.
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Re: Updated shoulder/arm deformation test

Postby joepal » Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:00 pm

ThomasL wrote:The worst deformation is with Arm up. That is really an impossible pose; I don't think you can raise the arm much above 90 degrees. Further rotation than that has to be done with the shoulder.


Actually I used the shoulder to rotate for the arm-up pose. All characters have 25-40 degrees shoulder rotation in that pose. Maybe it should have been more there though.
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Re: Updated shoulder/arm deformation test

Postby joepal » Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:06 pm

This is how the rigs look in blender (click for full size images)

Full size: http://www.jwp.se/files/rig-vanilla.png

Image

Full size: http://www.jwp.se/files/rig-pudgy.png

Image

We can see that the fat guy's bones are seriously bent in the default relaxed pose, something that I guess cause the constraints problems later on.
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Re: Updated shoulder/arm deformation test

Postby mduffor » Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:52 am

I would strongly suggest rigging in a clavicle to that rig; it would help a lot with the reaching up poses. Whenever humans lift their arms up past the t-pose level, the clavicle tends to kick in to get part of the lift. Also when reaching forwards and backwards, the clavicle will rotate (and the scapula slide across the back of the rib cage). This spreads the deformation of the shoulder area across a larger section of skin, which will help alleviate the pinching problems.

Other suggestions might be to put a stretchy bone in the trapezius (and probably the pecs and lats too), some sort of fan bones to help keep the deltoid from collapsing. Fan bones would help in the elbow area as well to reduce pinching and to make sure the exterior elbow holds its shape.

And of course you will need to resolve that popping in the screen-left arms. :-)

Cheers,
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Re: Updated shoulder/arm deformation test

Postby joepal » Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:10 pm

Yeah. I wish I had the time/skill to read up on the MHX scripts and contribute patches instead of just pestering Thomas, but I guess test videos are better than nothing. :)
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Re: Updated shoulder/arm deformation test

Postby ThomasL » Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:23 pm

Hi Michael,
Thank you for your suggestions. I feel that I have reached my level of incompetence when it comes to mesh deformation, and would be happy to get some help by more experienced people. Perhaps you are interested in weighting the mesh?

The rig already has pectoralis bones, as well as fan bones for elbows and knees. All deform bones are located on bone layer 16, which is not visible by default. I made a quick commit tonight with the additional bones you suggested, cf picture. What do you think about the bone placement? The new bones should be in tomorrow's nightly build. The weighting has not been changed, so the new bones don't affect the mesh yet.

Do you have any suggestions for the hip area as well? As Joel pointed out, there is an indentation when the leg is bent up. I currently fix that with corrective shapekeys, but that does not really work well since I use the same shapes for all characters, up to a scale factor. It would be better if one could get decent deformation with pure bones, and just spice it up with very small shapes.
Attachments
bone-placement.png
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Re: Updated shoulder/arm deformation test

Postby mduffor » Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:36 pm

Hi Thomas,

I am very interested in seeing MakeHuman succeed, so I'll chip in my thoughts when I can. Unfortunately I don't use MakeHuman or Blender, and between work and family I don't even get a lot of personal time on the computer. So I'll have to limit my contribution to forum replies for the moment.

I tried to dig up my old rig that had shoulder deformation rigged up (in Maya), but i couldn't find the file. It could have also been something I did for an employer a while back, it which case I wouldn't have had the file on my computer to begin with. :-)

Anyways, for the trapezius bone I was thinking of something that originates in the middle of the neck, and then points & scales its tip to the top of the shoulder where the clavicle and scapula meet. This will help keep the area between the deltoid and the neck from collapsing when the arm rotates upwards.

I snagged an image from the interwebs and did a quick paint-over to show what I'm talking about:

muscular_system_picture_front_002.jpg


The green lines are bones and the blue lines are muscles/stretchy-bones. Shoulder placement should be a little higher than you currently have it, since the shoulder rotates around the center of the ball-and-socket joint where the humerus and the scapula meet. This is a little higher than center of the meat of the arm. The scapula attaches to the end of the clavicle and rotates from just a little off from the centerline of the body (but higher than your current L_shoulder bone). There is a little bit of give where the scapula and clavicle meet, but not a ton.

Usually it is good to have some additional bones along the upper and lower arms to help spread any twisting along the length. I usually do this with three bones. In the case of the upper arm I would have the top bone point down the length to the elbow but not twist at all, the second point down the arm and twist half way, and the third point down the arm and twist all the way so that it is in the same space as the elbow. This kind of setup allows you restrict twisting of the mesh to mostly below the deltoid and thus keep your shoulder cleaner.

For the pectoralis major you will want to use several bones, since the muscle originates along a long edge that traces the sternum and down across the rib cage, and then inserts into a small area near the top of the humerus. If you are just using straight stretchy bones, you may want the origin to be further towards the middle of the muscle (perhaps in a line that traces through the nipple) so that you don't pull the mesh through the rib cage when the arm reaches backwards.

Your lats and shoulder fan look like they would work pretty well; you'd just want to tweak them based on how the mesh weighting goes.

There is no simple approach to mesh weighting... you just get in there and do it. I tend to not paint weights since it isn't very accurate when you have a lot of bones. I like to assign weights directly to points based on which joints I want to affect them, and then smooth the results on some of the verts until i get something that works for me.

I'll see if I can dig up some older samples from my hard drive in the next couple of weeks. Before a couple of nights ago, I hadn't actually launched a 3D app at home since March! I used to rig a bit at previous employers, but now I'm a Lighting TD so I don't play around with character rigs all that much any more.


Cheers,
Michael
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Re: Updated shoulder/arm deformation test

Postby mduffor » Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:04 am

A great new anatomy resource just went online. Google put up "Body Browser"

http://bodybrowser.googlelabs.com/

I can't view it from my Linux box (grrrr...) but I checked it out on my wife's Windows machine this morning and it is pretty sweet. It's a good way to see how the skeleton and muscles relate to the surface features and to one another. So if you are on a Windows box, it's worth checking out.

Cheers,
Michael
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