Rules

[devrich]

IMHO; porn vs art .............................

I believe that logically speaking; it's irrelevant except for one simple question "where/how is the art/porn piece to be displayed/publicized at a particular point in time and space?"

If you take the op's ( grinsegold )'s original post here "http://forum.makehuman.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11918#p29030" he has posted asking if an image of the statue of liberty having a 'specific' kind of sexual relations with the statue of justice is to be considered art or pornography.

It's actually both and neither -- I say that based on the delivery intentions of the art/porn piece at any specific point in time.

• If the art/porn piece is to be displayed/publicized in a place where visitors would appreciate the concepts being portrayed then it would be considered highly appropriate: ( in this particular case, the idea that justice is being 'dis'served by what some criminal-minded people feel is their 'freedom' to commit crimes and also get respected for their damned crimes ) but this would be most suited for a political and/or anti-crime message.
  
• If the art/porn piece is to be displayed/publicized in a place where visitors would immediately perceive the piece as "pornographic" then it would be considered highly "in"appropriate: ( in this particular case, creating an 3D representation of the image concept in a 3D computer program for general-public viewing where kids, teenagers, their family, their schools, etc where such imagery could cause confusion and/or misunderstanding which could lead to negative impacts to the viewer ) it is best _not_ to do this in a place where general audiences are welcome.
  
• If the art/porn piece is to be displayed/publicized in a place where the artist may wish to showcase their art/porn piece for their own fame then it could go either way depending on for instance if they are applying to a college or for a particular job or even to attempt to get an award somewhere for something. They could be viewed as having great artistic talent or as having a very good political-commentary capability or as having a great creative way of sexual-minded thinking ----OR---- they could be viewed in the exact-opposite perspective, again depending on 'where/how' they intend to deliver their art/porn piece.

The only ideal solution is to have two forums or two sub-forums and clearly mark them as "Appropriate for all Ages" and "Mature Audiences ONLY!"

Unfortunately criminals and trolls would just purposely muck it up by doing their usual criminal cyber attacks which in the u.s. and many other countries around the world is an imprison-able criminal offence. Therefore the only way to mitigate that would be to have someone 24/7/365 monitor postings/uploads and decide which of the two sub-forums the post/upload should be classified into and then just moved to the appropriate place -- this is in many cases too costly or simply unavailable.

just my 2 cents on the matter....

p.s.

i'm not accusing anybody of anything here but i have to say that even tough I like lots of different kinds of art; I don't approve of using art to de-rail, destroy, or de-fame the good intentions of people like the MakeHuman staff who have very generously given us a fantastic program to create whatever artwork is in our minds.

Many thanks to the MakeHuman staff and contributors for your fantastic work!!

[joepal]

The only ideal solution is to have two forums or two sub-forums and clearly mark them as "Appropriate for all Ages" and "Mature Audiences ONLY!"

Therefore the only way to mitigate that would be to have someone 24/7/365 monitor postings/uploads and decide which of the two sub-forums the post/upload should be classified into and then just moved to the appropriate place -- this is in many cases too costly or simply unavailable.

For a software which aims at being anatomically accurate, it does not make sense to start censoring images for being explicit. Topics like "a realistic vagina" (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9781&start=10) has to be allowed, even with detailed imagery.

Also, I don't think any of this is an actual problem. For the 8 years I've been involved in MH, I've never had to delete a post for being unfit to be displayed online. And I don't view the art contribution in question here as even close to being a candidate for that either.

[Manuel]

but today admin Manuel posted a clarification.

I missed this thread. What clarification do you mean?

UPDATE:

Anyway, your image is certainly borderline. Depending their taste and their culture, some people can consider it as art, other can consider it as porn..it's something like 50% porn and 50% art.

In my opinion, since this forum is not age restricted, and since it has a world wide audience, it should have only images that are 100% safe for everyone. Static nudity study in Michelangkleo style or as medical illustrations are ok, but a penetration, even if hidden, is clearly problematic.

The question is not if it's porn or art, but if it's suitable for a non-age restricted worldwide forum.
Even if we consider it 100% art, it's certainly an "adult art".
So I think that under this point of view, it's not safe. But it's just my opinion. It should be discussed with the whole contest team.

[joepal]

And I've made my view clear earlier: I don't view it as a problem. I think this whole discussion is overly anxious. It isn't as if we're posting beast porn on a my little pony forum.

If my 12 year old nephew saw that picture, he'd just think it was funny and then proceed to show it to all his buddies.

[Manuel]

If my 12 year old nephew saw that picture, he'd just think it was funny and then proceed to show it to all his buddies.

If my 70 year old uncle saw that picture, he'd just think it was porn.

This is just to say that the decision should be not based upon personal opinions or experience.
The personal taste is irrelevant (for example, for me it's not porn) but since the forum is the place for an international community and it's not age restricted, you should put yourself in others' shoes: everyone should be able to visit it, from any country, any religion, any culture, any age.

The question should be: is this image safe for everyone, from any country, any age, any religion, any culture?
It's not matter of being moralist, but just to find (at least try to find) an average line that respects everyone.

In the examples above, an image should be ok for both your nephew and my uncle, without kick out one of them.
In the first post of this thread the author asked my opinion, so I'm just saying it, it's not a rule, just a suggestion.

[grinsegold]

I missed this thread. What clarification do you mean?

I posted my submission on June 15th. Back then there was no post called "forum rules", but on June 17th there was your closed post under "announcements". Before that the rules were that liberal that i dared to post my picture. I read that you are one of the MH-developers, so i assumed you intended to exclude my submission from the contest. If i'm not wrong that's the case, and if it's within your power to do so - bad luck for me. But it's also a great promotion. The forbidden fruits are the sweetest, right? I see potential for the future of this picture. Being the platform where it initially was shown could also be a promotion for MH. But i understand your anxiety. You want to please the people while it seems as if i wanted to confront them. We both have our missions. Do what you have to do. But then, please be so consequent and think about adding a censor bar inside makehuman (not only a warning in the opener), since it's free to download and people could be offended by the results of some slider actions. And there is no point in offering the ability to add genitals to your model if there is no site that dares to show a vagina.
Talking about sliders: i have a wish (i know it's off topic, but since i don't need or expect an answer). Could you make the whole left panel be sensitive for the mousewheel please? As it is right now it's a bit unhandy. Thx.

[Manuel]

I missed this thread. What clarification do you mean?

I posted my submission on June 15th. Back then there was no post called "forum rules", but on June 17th there was your closed post under "announcements".

The "forum rules" post is there since Jul 03, 2012, and nobody touched it recently.
You just have not noticed it before June 17th.

[grinsegold]

Okay, my fault then.

[learning]

Goodness gracious, just add a disclaimer line "Some sections of this forum may contain images not appropriate for all ages, use on your own discretion". This will be enough. Seriously, people are not idiots, they know what kind of content they do or do not enjoy. They don't need any kind of nanny to tell them what to do.

[joepal]

I'm looking over the rules atm.

Anyway, it's not just a legal or think-of-the-children question. We've previously been threatened with being banned by google for posting pictures that google thinks is porn (or probably that an automated bot thinks is porn). This would obviously not be a good thing if it happened. However, with the move to the *.makehumancommunity domain, we've dropped google adsense pending a decision on what to do about it. This should make the risk somewhat lower.

We've also recently made some moves behind the scenes to put the community sites firmly within Swedish jurisdiction, which should make it somewhat more easy to figure what legal issues have to be considered (if any).

For the time being, I trust users with having reasonable common sense. I've never had to delete a post for what imagery it contained. When I delete posts and ban users it's because they are spam bots posting ads in chinese about online pharmacies.