Wish List

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Re: Wish List

Postby Eternl Knight » Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:44 am

Again, with due respect, neither of us have "authority" in this field. I, however, have provided proof that the androgynous method works & works well. You have provided arguments (but not proof) that it does not work as well as your "dual mesh foundation". You dance around & around the issue, but two facts remain:
  • The androgynous method is how MH is currently implemented and therefore, keeping it this way is (far) less work than your proposal.
  • The androgynous method has proven implementations, your method does not.
Unless you can come up with proof the androgynous method is worse off (not arguments for why it "should" be) - you are asking others to do extra work above and beyond based on your beliefs.

I am not asking for arguments nor providing them; arguments go in circles (like you have). I'm asking and have asked for proof "dual foundation" is more efficient & more flexible. You acknowledge you have none.

So again, to sum up, are you telling us we have to put in man-months of effort to implement a possibly flawed "dual mesh foundation" based on your opinion (as without proof that is what the arguments of either side amount to)?

--EK
Eternl Knight
 
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Re: Wish List

Postby chuck_starchaser » Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:23 am

Eternl Knight wrote:Again, with due respect, neither of us have "authority" in this field.
I can't confirm nor deny your assertion as to our shared lack of authority, since I don't know what "authority" means.

I, however, have provided proof that the androgynous method works & works well.
That depends on the definition of "well".

You have provided arguments (but not proof) that it does not work as well as your "dual mesh foundation".
Which "dual mesh"? I think you're mixing me up with someone else. If you're still attributing me with a proposal of having female AND male meshes, sorry to break it to you, but you've got Alzheimer's.

You dance around & around the issue, but two facts remain:
The androgynous method is how MH is currently implemented and therefore, keeping it this way is (far) less work than your proposal.
But my proposal, if it works, would be a lot less work in the long run.

The androgynous method has proven implementations, your method does not.
That much I grant you.

Unless you can come up with proof the androgynous method is worse off (not arguments for why it "should" be) - you are asking others to do extra work above and beyond based on your beliefs.
If I knew enough about MH's code to fork it all by myself, perhaps I'd give it a try; but I'm also very busy with my own open source project. In any case, I didn't "ask" others to do anything; I just happened to come up with an idea and I shared my thoughts on the subject. You're talking like a lawyer: "WHAT PROOF DO YOU HAVE?", as if I was making legal demands on MH's developers. All the proof in the world would get me nowhere if they were not willing to listen. But if they are open to new ideas, and apparently they are, then I need no more proof than a compelling argument.

I am not asking for arguments nor providing them; arguments go in circles (like you have).
Well, I'm trying my best not to go in circles, but you keep pulling me. It doesn't seem to matter how many times I say I propose a single base mesh being female; you keep insinuating, again and again, that my proposal is for a dual mesh system. It doesn't matter how many times I say your appeals to authority are not and will not be accepted, again and again you keep on appealing to authority. And now you're going to accuse me again and again of going in circles, I'm sure. Anyways, it seems like a sweet deal for you to neither ask for nor offer arguments: You got no arguments whatsoever you CAN offer on the topic, --except for your appeals to authority--; and your not asking for arguments is consistent with what I told you earlier: you're trying to discount mine. I don't care what you're asking for; my arguments stand already offered, whether you like it or not.
During this whole, long discussion, I count ONE valid argument offered against mine; and it wasn't one of yours; it was DAD's anecdodal evidence that he once tried to morph a female face into a male one and found it difficult.
Everything YOU've put on the table so far has been totally worthless; --not that the links aren't good links; I loved them.

I'm asking and have asked for proof "dual foundation" is more efficient & more flexible. You acknowledge you have none.
You'll have to find someone who believes in "dual foundation", I'm afraid. I would not offer proof for something I don't believe in. Remember to get checked for Alzheimer's.

So again, to sum up, are you telling us we...
Hold it right there: Who do you mean by "us" or "we"? If there's something I really hate is slimy posturing... You don't seem to me to be part of MH's developers team, are you? But you're using the terms "us" and "we", pretending that you're an insider and I'm an outsider... Just be glad this is not one of my forums... I'd put you in your place so fast you wouldn't know what hit you...

...have to put in man-months of effort
What do you mean by "have to"? I don't have any kind of legal agreements or commercial deals with MH's team.
to implement a possibly flawed "dual mesh foundation"
Alzheimers; don't forget!
based on your opinion (as without proof that is what the arguments of either side amount to)?
You think our civilization would have reached its present technological advancement if every time someone came up with a new idea everybody had demanded "proof" that it is better? How do you define "proof" anyways?
chuck_starchaser
 
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Re: Wish List

Postby DAD » Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:20 am

Manuel,
Just keep doing what you're doing ... cuz you're doing a great job. Any specific details that individuals want for their own personnal use needs to be sorted out on their end using whatever software they are untimately going to be using for the final work. MH is development tool, not an end results tool, as I see it. It will be able to provide posed figures for those that want them in the near term but animation is a long ways, off I feel, if it will ever be implemented. I will continue using the program no matter how you make it work. Whatever features you add, clothing, hair, et al, will just make this a better program. With the introduction of Proto, it'll be a situation of "If you don't like the way something looks, create a morph that works for you and add it in". The amount of work this program saves me far out weighs any minor mesh design problems it may have at the moment. Remember, we're not even to version 1.0 yet.

That said: Wish List Item - Please in the near future add a file browser for loading and saving and a confirm for saving ... I over wrote another BS file by mistake ... ARGH!!!!!!
I don't fear god anymore. Anything he/she does to me now is only adding insult to injury ... alright already enough with the insults!

http://www.dad-tv.com
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Re: Wish List

Postby Eternl Knight » Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:20 am

Chuck:
Whatever it is you are interested in, it is not rational debate. You just cast aspersions on my intelligence (Alzhiemers comments, particularly offensive given recent family history) and make threats ("I'd put you in your place so fast you wouldn't know what hit you..."). I can't be bothered addressing the rest of your post and, given the general "trollishness" of those insulting two elements, I guess you'll figure this means "you win". Whatever floats your boat, cos I'm done.

Manuel:
As per my PM's & posts in other threads, I am still willing to contribute both the clothing code we discussed, special case "form factor" code for facial expressions, and the morph scripts for the foundation mesh move (if you have no-one helping yet). My email is in the forum software & if you can't get it from there - DAD knows how to get a hold of me. PM him and I'm sure he'll pass on the message. Same goes if you want to discuss the problems I have with a "female base" (at your discretion). I will not be replying to this thread again, and need to leave the forums for a while.

--EK
Eternl Knight
 
Posts: 28
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Re: Wish List

Postby Manuel » Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:40 am

Sorry guys, this discussion is too flammed, and I've no time to moderate a so complex thread (I should code a bit MH :-) ).
So unfortunately a more impersonal approach is needed. For your wish list use this panel:

https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_ ... tid=779295

This discussion will be locked soon. I'm sorry.

Regards,

Manuel
Manuel
 

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