Wish List

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Re: Wish List

Postby chuck_starchaser » Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:47 pm

Manuel wrote:First thing, guys, please calm, less OT and more objective.
I appreciate this discussion (but not the flame)
Point taken; I'll try harder.

We all agree that base mesh should be more smooth. So the difference between EK and chuck point of view is not so big.
In my opinion it's only matter of measure: we have just "more feminine mesh" vs "full female mesh".[/list]Very true, and in fact the "pretty boy" average face is usually pretty damn close to "full female".

[*]Androgyne is really needed?
Assumend A = androgyn, F = female, M = male
we can have two cases, that I've quickly sketched below. In case (a) androgyne is retundant, while in (b) it's needed.[/list]
I'm not sure I understand what the diagrams represent. A point in a mesh as it moves through space given male and female modifiers? If so, what does the origin of the vectors represent?
If you're speaking of whether male-female transformations should be linear or non-linear, I believe this would be made irrelevant if there's one slider per feature, as users will just move the slider to suit their taste or needs.

If the graphs represent something more abstract, about the totality of maleness of femaleness factors, I'd say that M should be a family of vectors around an origin; while femaleness is not a vector, but rather the origin itself. (Which is why, I hypothesize, androgynous average looks so close to female, even though males, on average, are so different from female... This may in fact be due to the multi-directional variance we bunch together in the concept of maleness.)
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Re: Wish List

Postby BbB » Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:16 pm

Star Chase, how old are you? Just curious...
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Re: Wish List

Postby chuck_starchaser » Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:49 pm

I'm sorry, Manuel; but here we go again...
BbB wrote:Star Chase, how old are you?
Well, BbB, let me ask back, just why exactly would you be curious about my age? Are you female and looking for a suitor? Sorry, I'm not available, even if my age was right for you.
Or, let me ask: how long have you been on the Internet? Don't you know what "netiquette" is? You don't ask personal questions, off topic, and at a public forum.
That's a no no no no NOOOO.
There is a button on your screen, FYI (that means "For Your Information", FYI), under people's names, for sending a "Private Message".
You can use that to ask people personal questions.
Just curious...
... I'm sure you just are...
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Re: Wish List

Postby BbB » Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:20 am

All these toy spaceships and some of the language made me wonder, that's all. Don't lose sleep over it, man.

And sorry for that Manuel, I'll shut up now. Had enough fun for the day.
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Re: Wish List

Postby chuck_starchaser » Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:48 am

BbB wrote:All these toy spaceships
I suppose you're talking about the Wing Commander ship reconstructions. It's not up to me to decide what they should look like. Canonical concerns are the first priority.
and some of the language
Such as?
made me wonder, that's all.
No, it's NOT all; you came to post in this thread with a single purpose: to attack me personally under the thin guise of being "just curious" about my age (which speaks volumes 1 and 2 about yours, btw); and planning to criticize my models, obviously with the intent to exact your revenge for my telling you the simple truth --that your female model closely resembles John Travolta-- (which speaks volumes 3 and 4); and probably hoping to put me in a catch 22: defend myself and appear to be flaming and belligerant; or let you win. You think I never encountered your type of "tactics" before?
Don't lose sleep over it, man.
Hahaha, don't worry about my health; take care of yours, if you can manage that.
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Re: Wish List

Postby chuck_starchaser » Sat Mar 15, 2008 5:35 pm

Here's some links, for the curious:

General articles on the subject of the role of hormones on fetal growth:
Prenatal testosterone and gender behavior (pdf)Several topics covered, including,
  • Behavior, sexual orientation (page 1)
  • Normal variability in prenatal testosterone (page 3)
  • Gender-differentiated cognitive abilities (page 4)
Sexual Development & Differentiation --Morphological differentiation begins on the 8th week of gestation; see pages 10 through 15.
Fetal testosterone and sex differences --Abstract only; but mentions that "androgens, including testosterone" affect dimorphism

Pregnant mothers producing hormones for their babies to be:
No correlation observed between blood serum and amniotic hormonal concentrations --IOW, hormones apparently being produced and regulated exclusively for the benefit of the growing fetus.

Testosterone and other hormones are present inside the placenta, in the amniotic fluid, in different concentrations, depending on whether the growing fetus is male or female; can be measured to predict the baby's sex; and can be changed to prevent (or cause) sexual abnormalities:
Amniotic testosterone levels compared (typivally 5.5 times higher amniotic testosterone concentration for male than for female growing fetuses)
Amniotic hormone measurements as fetal sexing indicators --IOW, male babies require a different placental hormanal cocktail from female babies, and sex of the child can be predicted by measurement of hormone concentration levels.
MANAGEMENT OF CONGENITAL ADRENAL HYPERPLASIA DURING PREGNANCY --"Prevention of masculinization of affected female fetuses by corticosteroid suppression has been attempted in both 21-hydroxylase deficiency and 11b-hydroxylase deficiency CAH, with variable degrees of success."

Hormone concentration levels change over time:
Hormones in bovine pregnancies --Not about sex hormones, in this study; but there are charts showing how some other hormones in the amniotic fluid change over the time pregnancy.

Confusion caused by discordant gender twins:
Discordant sex twins can't seem to get differential treatment --(about amniotic fluid alpha-fetoprotein levels, in this study)
Dena Bodyan's 'Homosexuality' page --"The research team of Vom Saal, Grant, McMullen and Laves ( 10 ) offers another potential cause whose basis is also rooted in prenatal hormones. Fetal female rats were seen to have higher levels of testosterone if they had been situated between two male embryos in utero . The reception of testosterone from adjacent brothers was enough "to alter (a female rat's) behavioral phenotype"( 10 ). According to Edward Miller ( 11 ), the same occurs in humans: women who had male twins (and were therefore exposed to testosterone in utero ) exhibited slightly more masculine characteristics than did women who had not been exposed to testosterone before birth."
Male twins reduce fitness of female co-twins in humans --"In mammals, including humans, female fetuses that are exposed to testosterone from adjacent male fetuses in utero can have mascu-linized anatomy and behavior."

Too much testosterone at the wrong time can cause autism:
High amniotic testosterone levels in womb linked to autism --"Children with autism seemed to have an exaggeration of the typical male profile because they have a very strong interest in systems, like numbers, but have difficulties with empathy, according to Professor Cohen."

Homosexuality determined during early pregnancy, during shaping of the hypothalamus:
Homosexuality - natural causes of --"The brain makes its gender committment very early in development and, once committed to either male or female, it can not change. The interference with testosterone in the later stages of pregnancy, or after birth, does little or nothing to inhibit primary gender development of the other organs of the body."
Glen Wilson's 'Science of Sex' page --"In addition, it is necessary to separate brain settings for sex orientation from brain settings for sex-typical behaviour. It is possible, for example, to have an individual who is macho both in body and personality but who prefers male sex partners, or vice versa. This is because the masculinization/feminization effects occur in different parts of the brain and, more importantly, at different times during pre-natal development."

Homosexual rats born by exposing mothers to even low levels of a chemical normally found leeching out of plastic food containers:
Evidence of Altered Brain Sexual Differentiation in Mice Exposed Perinatally to Low, Environmentally Relevant Levels of Bisphenol A --"Here we explore the ability of environmentally relevant exposure to BPA to affect anatomical and functional measures of brain development and sexual differentiation."

This article in Psychology Today says that only sexual organs, the hypothalamus, and fingers differentiate during fetal growth:
Sexuality: Your Telltale Fingertips --"Except for genitalia, relative finger length is the only physical trait fixed at birth that is sexually dimorphic—meaning males and females show typical gender differences. Other sexually dimorphic traits, such as height and waist-to-hip ratio, don't appear until puberty. 'Everything you see as far as sex differences in the behavior of toddlers is an aftereffect of prenatal testosterone,' says Dennis McFadden..."

BUT, the article ignores that although morphological differentiation of the other parts of the body may be subtle and not readily apparent at birth, it is well known that the differentiations ARE there, already (in humans as in turtles, etc.):
Sexually dimorphic mandibular morphology in the first few years of life --"Sex differences in the youngest skeletons are very subtle, and any method that can separate males and females significantly better than chance will be of value. Compounding the problem is a paucity of immature skeletons of documented age and sex. In 1992, S.R.L. examined 62 juvenile mandibles of white and black South Africans of known age and sex (from birth to 19 years) from the Dart Collection to determine if the sexes could be differentiated by morphologic traits. By age 6 years, adult chin shapes were already recognizable. Prior to that age, differences were observed in the shape of the inferior border of the symphysis and outline of the body. The male chin base extends steeply downward relative to the adjacent body, coming to a point or squaring off at the symphysis. In females, the symphysis descends gradually to a more rounded base, and even when pointed, the transition is not abrupt. On the outer border of the corpus, the sides diverge sharply to form a \_/ shape from a roughly horizontal anterior region in males, while the female contour is rounded, reflecting the smoothly curved transition from front to sides. These traits were manifest from the eruption of the central incisors until about 4 years of age. The features were tested on all 19 Dart Collection mandibles in that age range. Average accuracy for three different testers was 81%, and males were consistently identified more accurately than females. This new method was then tested on a known sex sample of 11 individuals from 0 to 7 years of age. These included CT scans of 9 French children and the remains of 2 South African black forensic cases. Sexing accuracy was 82% (9/11). The only two missexed cases were both female and over age 6 years. In conclusion, the results of this study indicate that it is possible to determine the sex of very young mandibles. The new sexually dimorphic morphologic configurations introduced here have demonstrated repeatable discrimination with the highest level of accuracy (81%) reported and tested for this age group. Preliminary research indicates that both the male and female shapes are clearly recognizable in archaeologic and premodern hominids as well as chimpanzees. Am J Phys Anthropol 115:179-186, 2001. © 2001 Wiley-Liss, Inc." --IOW, although anatomical dimorphism may become more evident with age, it is already present and detectable at earier ages (and probably present already at birth, IMO).
Geometric Morphometric Sex Estimation for Hatchling Turtles: A Powerful Alternative for Detecting Subtle Sexual Shape Dimorphism --"Identifying sex of hatchling turtles is difficult because juveniles are not obviously externally dimorphic, and current techniques to identify sex are often logistically unfeasible for field studies. We demonstrate a widely applicable and inexpensive alternative to detect subtle but significant sexual dimorphism in hatchlings, using landmark-based geometric morphometric methods." (IOW, sexual dimorphism is not readily appearent in new-born turtles, but it IS there already.)

And, more importantly, although hormonal levels of males and females are different during puberty, the differences are not enough to fully account for dimorphic development. Apparently, male and female tissue's sensitivities to androgens plays a major role:
Autoradiographic Localization of Dihydrotestosterone Binding in the Major Salivary Glands and Other Androgen-responsive Organs of the Mouse --in plain English, features grow dimorphically after birth due to distinct concentrations of androgen receptors in the tissues of males and females.
Prenatal testosterone exposure permanently masculinizes anogenital distance, nipple development and reproductive tract morphology in female Sprague-Dawley rats.
Evidence that the androgen receptor mediates sexual differentiation of mouse renal cytochrome P450 expression.
Androgen receptor mRNA expression in Xenopus laevis CNS: Sexual dimorphism and regulation in laryngeal motor nucleus
Androgen receptors are required for full masculinization of the ventromedial hypothalamus (VMH) in rats --I call your special attention to the fact that the hypothalamus, incidentally, is the primary area of the brain showing sexual dimorphism; --which dimorphism develops during fetal growth.
Induction of Androgen Receptor Formation by Epithelium-Mesenchyme Interaction in Embryonic Mouse Mammary Gland --the formation of androgen receptors in tissues and organs which are responsible for sexually dimorphic development at later stages, appears to be determined during fetal growth: "The role of tissue interaction in the development of hormone responsiveness was studied in the embryonic mammary gland of the mouse, which becomes sensitive to testosterone on day 14."
A Novel Androgen Receptor Mutation Resulting in Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome and Bilateral Leydig Cell Hyperplasia --"Androgens drive male secondary sexual differentiation and maturation. Mutations in the androgen receptor (AR) gene cause a broad spectrum of abnormal phenotypes in humans, ranging from mild through partial to complete androgen insensitivity."

Last but not least:
Wikipedia's Defeminization and masculinization page.
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Re: Wish List

Postby Eternl Knight » Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:02 pm

Attention readers:
The articles above attack a strawman argument. Nobody debates the biology. The debate is how to best "simulate" the "look & deformation" of the male & female "appearance" in a 3D mesh in the most efficient & flexible manner possible. This forum is not about human body development. It is about an application that can quickly generate the appearance of a wide variety of human figures & how to best develop the application. Also note, according to "chuck", this debate is only on the facial generation and head mesh ("Again, I've been talking about head and face all along." in this post)

Of course, read the articles if you are interested in the biology, but they don't make any difference to the debate as to whether or not an androgynous base mesh is better or worse for the generation of arbitrary human appearances through the application of applicable morphs. To collate earlier links on the actual matter of debate:
  • FaceGen Software - an actual highly successful implementation of facial mesh generation and face matching based of a "mean face" generated by averaging all input faces (i.e. androgynous due to averaging all male & female faces into the "mean mesh").
  • Video on recent research - this video shows the flexibility of using a mesh generated from the average of input faces (male & female) and generating morphs for said mesh by statistically analysing meshes sharing common characteristics (such as analysing all male meshes to extract a "maleness" morph, all females for the same, all fat people, etc). Note FaceGen mentions the similarity in technology in their FAQ.
  • Volker Blanz's Page - researcher responsible for above image. From this page you can download & read the various research papers on the techniques he uses and how they can be applied in other ways.
  • Facial Database Source - this page is one of the quintessential sources of facial data used in facial mesh research.
  • GRAIL Body Research - Research page on the generation of arbitrary "body meshes". Note they also use an androgynous "mean mesh" as the foundation and generate their morphs using statistical analysis (in their case PCA). Papers & demonstration videos available at the site
  • Carleton University Research - similar technique used as above, similar results.
  • MIRALab - a department at the University of Geneva dedicated to the generation, animation, and presentation of virtual humans (face & body). Their papers on "modelling techniques" is highly informative, and I have yet to find one that specifies it is better to have separate male/female meshes. There are several projects however that use &/or talk about the flexibility offered by the "mean mesh" (generated from male & female inputs, hence statistically androngynous).

--EK
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Re: Wish List

Postby chuck_starchaser » Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:51 pm

Well, remember I said to you, paraphrasing myself, "If you're going to throw on my face the fact that I've presented no evidence, the onus is on you to declare what type of evidence you'd be willing to consider"? It is disingenious to still refuse to do so, and then when I do present some evidence, to call it a "strawman attack".
In any case, it is no attack of any kind. I said "here's some links for the curious"; nothing more was said or implied. I've had people completely disbelieving me, on occasion, when I told them that homosexuality was due to a malformation of the hypothalamus, for instance (specially gays don't seem to like hearing that, for some reason), so I keep bookmarks to interesting articles to these subjects for when I need them to win an argument. Here nobody argued my biological assertions, but I still thought "might as well", just in case someone is silently thinking I'm full of it.

As for your links, I say it again: Just the fact that they USE an androgynous average face, does NOT imply that they seriously thought about it, or that they tried any other approaches. Show me an article by someone who tried other approaches and ended up going back to androgynous; or show me some theoretical thesis written on the subject of androgynous versus other possible base meshes. Until you do so, your argument is a "strawman attack" :D

And if you think I'm putting a big burden of proof on you, think about the burden of proof you're putting on me: I positively cannot come up with someone else's affirmation that my way is right, and you know it; since I'm the first one who's ever thought of it, by all apparences.

Glad you're still in the game, though. ;-)
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Re: Wish List

Postby Eternl Knight » Sun Mar 16, 2008 1:59 am

No game to me, simply trying to keep the thread on topic. Biological reasons for anatomy (for purposes of efficient generation & presentation) is off-topic, as is homosexuality and so on. The topic is (or should be) "What is the most flexible & efficient method MH can use to generate a wide variety of human figures & faces with the minimum amount of coding/sculpting effort?", at least - that is what is has morphed into since the "Wish List" topic was hijacked.

With all due respect, if you truly believe that no-one has tried your method - the onus is on you to prove its applicability & improvement over the norm. The links I provide show that the "mean mesh" / androgynous method works, works well, works in a variety of practical applications, and provides for a wide range of generation research areas. Your approach (by your own words) is untested and relies on your (and only your) opinions of how biology should affect the mesh generation.

To disprove your hypothesis, one would have to deviate from the tried & tested methods of mean / androgynous mesh foundations, implement a dual mesh foundation in MakeHuman, then test that against the current implementation in terms of morph count & flexibility. With all due respect, are you seriously telling us we should take your wild musings, possibly waste man-months of effort recoding MH & reworking the existing MH morphs in order to satisfy your question? All of this while the current research, state of the art, & current MakeHuman software agree on an alternate method that is providing proven results?

Correct me if I am wrong here about your position, but this is all I'm getting.

--EK
Last edited by Eternl Knight on Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wish List

Postby chuck_starchaser » Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:26 am

Well, you mention biology, you mention "my opinion"; but you neglected to mention the many posts in which I explained, in many ways, why I think starting from a female mesh, rather than an androgyn mesh, would be better. I'm not going to bother repeating myself, because I don't believe you simply forgot my arguments were there; I believe your neglect is intentional, --because admitting that my previous arguments even exist would be an abandonment of your current position --namely, appeal to authority (which naturally implies denying me any); and which position apparently you still seem to think as strong.

So, to even acknowledge that I presented arguments for moving away from androgynous, would be to recognize the fact that my arguments deserve any respect or consideration whatsoever; which you are trying to discount (in spite of all your repetitious "With all due respect..."'s)...

You are trying to imply that the only arguments valid for consideration are those of those who agree with you, or have a PHD next to their names. Funny thing is that none of the links you've shown argue for your point view, or even agree with you; they most likely just never thought about the subject. Using Androgyn is just a long tradition probably no one's ever questioned.

And as for the "should" arguments; like what do I think MH "should" do; I don't like "should" phrases. When someone says "I should do X", what does it mean? An admission of thinking in one way and acting in another? What MH or anyone "should" do is what they believe to be right, which is what we all do, naturally; unless we think that we think X to be right but we don't really believe it...
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