MIT LICENSE? - Sorry, still not good enough...

[kwizatz]

I think the problem lies in trying to fit a Software license to a mesh (would that be content or artistic work?), it should instead use the Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 license which is a basically like MIT but applies to works other than Software.

As I understand the MIT license you (The OP) are misinterpreting it, as it basically says "do whatever you want but give me some credit", but then again, as it is being quoted seems it has been modified (and not by a competent lawyer) in order to somehow replace "Software" with "Mesh".

Just my 2 cents.

[Manuel]

From next release (phoenix) the output mesh will be free (no license).
Data (targets, poses, and other libraries) will be under GPL 3.0
Regards,

Manuel

[SuperCGpro]

From next release (phoenix) the output mesh will be free (no license).
Data (targets, poses, and other libraries) will be under GPL 3.0
Regards,

Manuel

Will the Output mesh, after being changed by targets or a pose also be free?

[SuperCGpro]

Eternal Knight:
I am not "going nuts" about anything.
Secondly - does Poser, Maya, Hexagon, Bryce, Wings3d, Carrera, Amapi, TrueSpace, K3d, 3D Studio Max, Wavefront, or any other 3D modelling app require you to add additional copyright notices in outputted product? Answer: NO!
It's actually a pretty silly concept.

You don't have a problem with it, but I do - and so do some other users.
I'm calm - cool - and rational, and I understand the MIT license. It reads like it reads and it says what it says, and that's the name of that tune...

Where did YOU read that the MIT only applies to the "root mesh"(?), because I, and I'm sure everyone else in the universe who read it, saw no defined or outlined distinction of a "root mesh" indicated in the license anywhere - just "the mesh" - and all outputted product contains "the mesh"! I don't speak "Geek" , but I do speak "Legalese", and that means reading the fine print FIRST, and looking for the loopholes that can snag you like a bear trap.

I am NOT "going nuts" on the issue - I am bringing up valid points that desperately need correction before MH could ever hope to be commercially or professionally viable.

Also, I am not making the issue "too complex" - because where lawsuits, fines, court costs, legal fees, and potentially even imprisonment might be concerned - you can NEVER get "TOO COMPLEX".

This point of this thread is not to bicker, but instead - it's a very healthy debate. We are contributing to the developement of MH simply by discussing this issue.
MH is still in it's infancy - and both users and developement team members profit from discussions like this. It's important to iron these things out and to cover all of the bases early on in MH's evolution, while it's still in the preliminary developement phases.
The language of the license is as crucial to a software project as the qaulity of it's content - anyone can tell you that.

In a way - this situation reminds me of the film "12 Angry Men" starring Henry Fonda.
12 jury members are sequestored in a jury room deciding the fate of a juvenile boy who is convicted of killing his father. As the film begins - almost all of the men except one are impatient, and they want to do a quick "guilty" vote to put the whole issue behind them and to go on with their lives. It took one consciencious guy with a sense of conviction to point at the importance of not only the consequences of a guilty verdict - but the critical value of even the most minute details of the case.

While I'm not going to be so narcissistic as to place myself in the role of "Henry Fonda", and
since we are talking about nothing as severe as a murder trial, STILL - the moral of the story (to me anyway) as it would pertain to our discussion - might be that every detail is important, and we can't avoid discussing these issues merely because we find them boring or tedious, and we want to move on to other things.

Mugsey...chill.
Everything you are saying is 150% valid and just. I have a hack for the MIT License (& you won't "go to prison" for it ). The way the license is worded definitely can ambiguously create the loophole you were talking about. But, it is still a loophole nonetheless, a loophole / backdoor that is easily... closed.
I agree with you, that the new license needs to be 100% straight (no loopholes, etc.) . I think , it appears, the team is trying to find the best way to protect their work, while giving the user the greatest freedom to use it's output. If the new Laura Croft is made with Make Human, it needs to be 100% free from any kind of legal strings, or the production houses won't use it for that very same reason. Thus defeating the purpose of creating the program in the first place. Make Human wasn't created just to show off that it could be done, I believe. It was, if I remeber correctly, created to be usable to industry and individual alike.
As far as going over this with a fine tooth comb, you are 250% right on that, again. Your eagle eyes that spotted the MIT loophole, are just what this project needs in order to be truly successful (I've been over this license stuff fifty billion times myself). What I'm getting at is that everybody needs to go over this stuff in a calm, line by line kind of way, without getting caught up or mesmerized by the "code" we're looking at. It's like we're beta testing the license along with the software (although I feel the licensing should be clear before the software is released). Maybe the team should post each version of the license before each software update is released, for evaluation and feedback.
As far as discussion, this stuff definitely needs to be talked about. What I'm suggesting is that we use the most constuctive and productive methods to do that. I think we need to get everybody on the same page about this and knock each problem out, like crushing the "squiddies" in the "Matrix." For example, we could make a problem solving thread, where everybody lists problems they've spotted with Make human and their suggested solution/s, if they have one (I think I'll go ahead and create that now). This way, the team could look directly at that thread and be quickly updated on whats been found. The worst question is the one left un-asked .
As far as things being too complex, maybe I should clarify. There are times when people can get too caught up in the details to see the big picture. And other times when people gets stung, duped, or hornswoggled because they looked at only the big picture without focusing in on the details. Therefore, there has to be a two fold method, incorporating both concepts, like creating a plot for a movie, then filling in the dialog (see W.E. Deming for example) (great "12 angry men" analogy, BTW).
Overall as I have stated before, I feel the team should make a new simple MH License that covers all this in a very simple way. Also, Mugsey, I believe that your points were well stated, well thought out, and very important (complex comment was not an insult, no offense was intended). Relax..don't worry. everythings under control ( I hope ) .
(misc. info)
(W.Edwards Deming, the man who was in part, the secret behind Japans Industrial / economic Miracle )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

(Team films)
1) crime caper genre (stealing is bad, Don't steal. Teamwork is good.)
Italian Job (2003. Mark Wahlberg, Charlize Theron )
Oceans 11, 12, & 13 ( 2001 - 2007 George Clooney, Julia Roberts, Brad Pitt, Catherine Zeta-Jones )
Entrapment ( Sean Connery, Catherine Zeta-Jones )
2) team action genre
Mission impossible 2, & 3 ( 2000, 2006 Tom Cruise )
Stunt Seven (70's) ( Christopher Connelly, Christopher Lloyd, Soon-Tek Oh, Morgan Brittany, Elke Sommer, Patrick Macnee)
Stunts unlimited (1980) (Christopher Mayer, Susanna Dalton, Alejandro Rey)
(Tv show) The New avengers ( Patrick Macnee, Joanna Lumley, Gareth Hunt )

[pistacja]

Oh c'mon. There's no need for a MH license, GNU GPL v3 is enough. All that needs to be done is to explicitly permit the use of output files without restrictions.

It's nothing new, it has been done before just look at the FAQ on gnu.org

Can I use GPL-covered editors such as GNU Emacs to develop non-free programs? Can I use GPL-covered tools such as GCC to compile them?

Yes, because the copyright on the editors and tools does not cover the code you write. Using them does not place any restrictions, legally, on the license you use for your code.

Some programs copy parts of themselves into the output for technical reasons—for example, Bison copies a standard parser program into its output file. In such cases, the copied text in the output is covered by the same license that covers it in the source code. Meanwhile, the part of the output which is derived from the program's input inherits the copyright status of the input.

As it happens, Bison can also be used to develop non-free programs. This is because we decided to explicitly permit the use of the Bison standard parser program in Bison output files without restriction. We made the decision because there were other tools comparable to Bison which already permitted use for non-free programs.

Is there some way that I can GPL the output people get from use of my program? For example, if my program is used to develop hardware designs, can I require that these designs must be free?

In general this is legally impossible; copyright law does not give you any say in the use of the output people make from their data using your program. If the user uses your program to enter or convert his own data, the copyright on the output belongs to him, not you. More generally, when a program translates its input into some other form, the copyright status of the output inherits that of the input it was generated from.

So the only way you have a say in the use of the output is if substantial parts of the output are copied (more or less) from text in your program. For instance, part of the output of Bison (see above) would be covered by the GNU GPL, if we had not made an exception in this specific case.

You could artificially make a program copy certain text into its output even if there is no technical reason to do so. But if that copied text serves no practical purpose, the user could simply delete that text from the output and use only the rest. Then he would not have to obey the conditions on redistribution of the copied text.

In what cases is the output of a GPL program covered by the GPL too?

Only when the program copies part of itself into the output.

[SuperCGpro]

Oh c'mon. There's no need for a MH license, GNU GPL v3 is enough. All that needs to be done is to explicitly permit the use of output files without restrictions.

It's nothing new, it has been done before just look at the FAQ on gnu.org

Actually, there is a difference in the faq and the actual legal document. Here is an example :

3. Protecting Users' Legal Rights From Anti-Circumvention Law.

No covered work shall be deemed part of an effective technological measure under any applicable law fulfilling obligations under article 11 of the WIPO copyright treaty adopted on 20 December 1996, or similar laws prohibiting or restricting circumvention of such measures.

When you convey a covered work, you waive any legal power to forbid circumvention of technological measures to the extent such circumvention is effected by exercising rights under this License with respect to the covered work, and you disclaim any intention to limit operation or modification of the work as a means of enforcing, against the work's users, your or third parties' legal rights to forbid circumvention of technological measures.

Esentially, in the case of make human, this is where the problem comes in. The mesh and targets, being bundled with the software without a separate license, could be considerd a "covered work" under GPL v3. Since the former versions of MH use MIT as a secondary license the mesh is covered under it. If you go under GPL, you run in to the "anti circumvention" problem. If I remeber correctly, GPL also states you can't change the license, as well. This is what I meant in earlier posts about checking the fine print (details) so to speak. Putting the mesh under GPL is a no no. See beginning of thread.
You see the key is here :

Is there some way that I can GPL the output people get from use of my program? For example, if my program is used to develop hardware designs, can I require that these designs must be free?
In general this is legally impossible; copyright law does not give you any say in the use of the output people make from their data using your program. If the user uses your program to enter or convert his own data, the copyright on the output belongs to him, not you. More generally, when a program translates its input into some other form, the copyright status of the output inherits that of the input it was generated from.

The Mesh from make human is not considered yours until you output it from the program. The earlier debacle was over weather or not the mesh could be considered source code. You see, the Make human mesh is not "input" from the user and is copyright Makehuman. This is why there is a second license already on the current versions. So that users could use the mesh without copyright, GPL, or piracy issues. How can you sell an item (as stated in MIT) if you can't protect it (as stated in the GPL) . If the new Laura croft's mesh was made with a GPL mesh, and could be extracted from the game, It would be GPL under GPL v3 . The creators of the game could have problems with their product if the data used was considered GPL. Therefore, currently GPL Is not the ideal solution . Free Software Foundation's social solution is that software have no protection under GPL (if I am stating their position correctly), a solution that is unsuitable for this particular application regarding the software mesh ( a mesh that may be used in other applications besides theoretical or academic) .

[Manuel]

From next release (phoenix) the output mesh will be free (no license).
Data (targets, poses, and other libraries) will be under GPL 3.0
Regards,

Manuel

Will the Output mesh, after being changed by targets or a pose also be free?

Yes.

[Manuel]

Eternal Knight:
I am not "going nuts" about anything.
Secondly - does Poser, Maya, Hexagon, Bryce, Wings3d, Carrera, Amapi, TrueSpace, K3d, 3D Studio Max, Wavefront, or any other 3D modelling app require you to add additional copyright notices in outputted product? Answer: NO!
It's actually a pretty silly concept.

I repete that next release will come out without restriction on the output mesh (even with morphing applied).
But take a look to poser End User License Agreement (a portion), just for fun:

---------------------------------------------------------
A. As used in this section, the term "Restricted Content" means all files and data included with or part of the Program including but not limited to:

- Included mesh objects (geometry) in any format.

- Included files in all proprietary Program file formats (PZ3, PP2, CM2, LT2, HR2, FC2, HD2, PZ2, CR2, MC6, MT5, and any subsequent/compressed formats).

- Included images (including but not limited to materials, texture and transparency maps).

- Included Documentation.

- Restricted Content extracted or exported from the Program remains Restricted Content except as expressly permitted by this agreement.

B. Third-party content included with Program and Documentation is copyrighted and owned by the original content creators.

C. The Company claims full ownership and copyright rights to all Company-created Restricted Content and all derivatives of these files which are not expressly permitted by this agreement.

D. You cannot sell, resell, distribute, cause to be distributed, or allow any portion of the Restricted Content to be distributed under any circumstances, via any public or private medium, except where expressly permitted by this EULA and US copyright law, without the Company's prior written consent, a copy of which must be furnished with all Restricted Content distributed in accordance with this section. You may only use the Restricted Content for exclusive use on one computer unless authorized within this EULA and/or the contents of the Company's official written consent.

E. You may copyright and distribute rendered still or animated images derived from the Restricted Content without restriction or royalty to Company provided you do not violate other clauses of this agreement.

F. If you purchased a Site License, you may distribute the Restricted Content between all computers containing valid copies of the Program, other Company products, and/or other software able to process Restricted Content.

G. You may export geometry data for use in other third party software packages provided that you do not violate any terms of this agreement. You may not sell, distribute, or copyright exported Restricted Content geometry data in any format of any kind unless expressly permitted by this agreement. Re-triangulated, simplified, subdivided, or other Derivative forms of exported geometry data remain Restricted Content. You may use Program to generate three-dimensional motion data that you can sell, distribute, and copyright provided that this data is not derived from motion data included in the Restricted Content.

H. You may use and distribute the Allowed Content in accordance with all applicable license terms imposed by the content's original creator. The Company does not enforce third-party rights.

I. The purpose of defining certain content as Restricted Content is to protect the Company's investment, interests, and ownership of Restricted Content. It is not the Company's policy to unreasonably restrict or inhibit any third party's creative or commercial activities. The following are Legitimate Uses of Restricted Content:

- Creating morph targets based on the Restricted Content provided that any distribution of the morph targets will not include the original mesh connectivity information. This can be in the form of data utilized with morph moving utilities or in a .CR2 file that references the original geometry but does not include the complete mesh.

- Creating texture templates derived from the Restricted Content to create new maps for either Restricted or Allowed content.

- Creating tutorials, books, or other educational materials using images of Program interface for sale, distribution, public display, etc., provided they are intended to educate users as to use of the Program, or when used under the "fair use" guidelines of US copyright law. Any other use of images of the Program interface must be approved by the Company's prior written consent.

- Creating original content (props, hair, clothing, etc.) for Restricted Content for sale, distribution, public display, etc.

- Creating materials (shader trees) for use with either Restricted or Allowed Content.

- Creating characters or props based on Restricted Content in proprietary file formats, where the original (or modified) geometry, texture, or other Restricted Content Files are not distributed with said characters or props.

- Creating PoserPython scripts.

J. As part of the legitimate uses for Restricted Content outlined above, you may reproduce, distribute, sell, copyright, publicly display, and publicly perform using Restricted Content provided that such activity is limited to the Legitimate Uses enumerated above and does not violate any other clauses in this agreement and/or applicable US copyright laws.
----------------------------------------------

[Mugsey]

Manuel...

The "Restricted Content" that the Poser License is referring to are actually the "ready made" complete models, props, etc. INCLUDED WITH the program (or part of the program) itself.

Let's look at the Poser License again:

A. As used in this section, the term "Restricted Content" means all files and data included with or part of the Program including but not limited to:
- Included mesh objects (geometry) in any format.

(NOTE the term OBJECTS)

- Included files in all proprietary Program file formats (PZ3, PP2, CM2, LT2, HR2, FC2, HD2, PZ2, CR2, MC6, MT5, and any subsequent/compressed formats).

- Included images (including but not limited to materials, texture and transparency maps).

- Included Documentation.

- Restricted Content extracted or exported from the Program remains Restricted Content except as expressly permitted by this agreement.

B. Third-party content included with Program and Documentation is copyrighted and owned by the original content creators.

C. The Company claims full ownership and copyright rights to all Company-created Restricted Content and all derivatives of these files which are not expressly permitted by this agreement.

D. You cannot sell, resell, distribute, cause to be distributed, or allow any portion of the Restricted Content to be distributed under any circumstances, via any public or private medium, except where expressly permitted by this EULA and US copyright law, without the Company's prior written consent, a copy of which must be furnished with all Restricted Content distributed in accordance with this section. You may only use the Restricted Content for exclusive use on one computer unless authorized within this EULA and/or the contents of the Company's official written consent.

E. You may copyright and distribute rendered still or animated images derived from the Restricted Content without restriction or royalty to Company provided you do not violate other clauses of this agreement.

F. If you purchased a Site License, you may distribute the Restricted Content between all computers containing valid copies of the Program, other Company products, and/or other software able to process Restricted Content.

G. You may export geometry data for use in other third party software packages provided that you do not violate any terms of this agreement.

You may not sell, distribute, or copyright exported Restricted Content geometry data in any format of any kind unless expressly permitted by this agreement. Re-triangulated, simplified, subdivided, or other Derivative forms of exported geometry data remain Restricted Content. You may use Program to generate three-dimensional motion data that you can sell, distribute, and copyright provided that this data is not derived from motion data included in the Restricted Content.

H. You may use and distribute the Allowed Content in accordance with all applicable license terms imposed by the content's original creator. The Company does not enforce third-party rights.

I. The purpose of defining certain content as Restricted Content is to protect the Company's investment, interests, and ownership of Restricted Content. It is not the Company's policy to unreasonably restrict or inhibit any third party's creative or commercial activities. The following are Legitimate Uses of Restricted Content:

- Creating morph targets based on the Restricted Content provided that any distribution of the morph targets will not include the original mesh connectivity information. This can be in the form of data utilized with morph moving utilities or in a .CR2 file that references the original geometry but does not include the complete mesh.

- Creating texture templates derived from the Restricted Content to create new maps for either Restricted or Allowed content.

- Creating tutorials, books, or other educational materials using images of Program interface for sale, distribution, public display, etc., provided they are intended to educate users as to use of the Program, or when used under the "fair use" guidelines of US copyright law. Any other use of images of the Program interface must be approved by the Company's prior written consent.

- Creating original content (props, hair, clothing, etc.) for Restricted Content for sale, distribution, public display, etc.

- Creating materials (shader trees) for use with either Restricted or Allowed Content.

- Creating characters or props based on Restricted Content in proprietary file formats, where the original (or modified) geometry, texture, or other Restricted Content Files are not distributed with said characters or props.

- Creating PoserPython scripts.

J. As part of the legitimate uses for Restricted Content outlined above, you may reproduce, distribute, sell, copyright, publicly display, and publicly perform using Restricted Content provided that such activity is limited to the Legitimate Uses enumerated above and does not violate any other clauses in this agreement and/or applicable US copyright laws.

Basically what this says is that you can create your own original models and figures within POSER or a third party app and import it into Poser, translate it into a POSER format file(s) for use in either Poser or an app that can use Poser files like DAZ STUDIO, and the model is still COMPLETELY ans UNRESTRICTIVELY YOURS. It's only when you make DERIVATIONS of COMPLETELY DEFINED NON GENERIC MODELS included WITH POSER, or use those COMPANY CREATED or SUBLICENSED THIRD PARTY BUNDLED ENTITIES - that you are dealing with "RESTRICTED CONTENT".

This point is clarified chiefly by this sentence proclamation defined under "permissable" uses:
"Creating original content (props, hair, clothing, etc.) for Restricted Content for sale, distribution, public display, etc"

Again - as I said before - original end user created content (not content derived from company trademarked models or sub licensed third party bundled models) - even in Poser proprietary formats, are still the total unrestricted property of the enduser - no copyright or attribution required.

The Poser license also clarifies a distinction between a "character" created by an enduser - and content claimed by the company as intellectual property, whereas no such distinction is made in the MIT license.

The Poser license does NOT place restrictions on meshes / objects imported INTO Poser , rigged or modified within Poser - and then re-exported out in a Poser proprietary format, nor are there any stipulations concerning royalties or required sublicensing for creating original models converted to a Poser format and then distributed or sold, otherwise how could the license state that the third party bundled entities are the intellectual and real properties of their respective creators?

Poser has figures that can be used to make images - but many people choose to create their own original figures outside of Poser and import them into Poser to rig and to pose them. Poser is at it's core really not a figure creation utility, but a figure POSING and ANIMATION utility geared towards making images and animations.

MH on the other hand - is a figure CREATION utility - hence it's name "MAKE HUMAN". MH shares many simularities AND attributes with POSER - but is more of a modelling application because it's chief focus is on FIGURE CREATION - not FIGURE ANIMATION or POSING. Poser has "rigging" resources that allow for original models IMPORTED into Poser to be rigged for use WITHIN Poser - eie. to create 2D imagery using 3d resources.

Original end user created content rigged within Poser and then exported in Poser file format(s) are not held to any restrictions whatsoever, hence in this respect - they are unrestricted mesh output. You can find many original Poser figures made by Poser End Users for sale all over the net. (figures created in a third party 3d modelling suite, and then rigged and translated within Poser for use within Poser and Daz Studio).

MH is a FIGURE MODELLING APPLICATION, thus it is more closely related to Hexagon, Wings3d, and 3dStudio Max, than Poser really. It is chiefly designed to CREATE figure models, and is not focused at it's core on primarily posing already defined figures and making just 2D images.

In short - Poser is a figure posing and rendering utility with some modelling capabilities - while MH is a figure modelling utility with some posing and rendering capabilities.

Because MH is defined as a MODELLING application (see intro preamble at MH homepage),
then it's function is to allow users to CREATE their own FIGURES (MODELS) - not to make images from precreated figures provided for them.

Poser is designed to allow users to make IMAGES that they OWN using program provided premade figures, MH is designed to allow users to create 3D FIGURE MODELS that they OWN.

Poser and MH are two very different and very distinct programs. Apples and Oranges...

When I became frustrated earlier and said "I'll just buy a copy of Poser", I was referring to either making my own models then importing them into Poser for rigging and translation into Poser runtime file format, or - using a premade Poser figures for scenes (in which case I wouldn't own the models, just the images - which is NOT what I really want). from there I would then import it into DAZ STUDIO - pose it there - and then the final stage is sending on into Bryce 6 where the final scene is completed. I would much rather make my own figures with MH rather than using the cookie cutter already made Poser figures or having to make a figure in WINGS3d and then rigging in Poser, because MH would allow me to create MY OWN models FASTER. Poser files can be used in DAZ studio, and I need DAZ studio to do large scale scenes in BRYCE 6.1, which is really not possible in Poser on the "panoramic" scale that I prefer. DAZ STUDIO integrates with Bryce, and Poser files integrate with Daz Studio. I believe Carrera is the only other third party app that has files compatible with Daz Studio. I want to completely OWN my figure models - hence - my frustration.

To Manuel, SuperCGPro,Eternal Knight, and everyone else responding to this thread -
..You are all terrific, and I appreciate - and am thankful for the opportunity and privelege to be part of this forum -
Please don't misinterpret my enthusuastic, and at times - rather empassioned dialogue as being in any way derogatory, terse, or fecicious. I have a tendency at times to get a little carried away and piously climb atop my soap box and get a tad bit preachy - but sometimes I get lucky and actually manage to say something relevant .LOL.

[SuperCGpro]

From next release (phoenix) the output mesh will be free (no license).
Data (targets, poses, and other libraries) will be under GPL 3.0
Regards,

Manuel

Will the Output mesh, after being changed by targets or a pose also be free?

Yes.

Will there be a simple document stating this? If so, the problem is solved. Thanks Manuel.