Help understanding rig options

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Help understanding rig options

Postby MatCreator » Mon Dec 27, 2021 1:49 pm

hi =)

so ive been exploring and experimenting quite a bit lately w/ the different options for bringing in makehuman figures into blender... there is a shitload to be honest, and its been hard targeting on the best approach (general pros/cons and best practices vs my own needs and workflow). also, w/ the mpfb being updated, that seems to be the direction, which is fine, so far i love it. so that narrows it down to about 3 ways, use the mhx2 import, the makehuman default rig, or using the game engine rig to switch to a riggify rig. i have my own thoughts, but id really like to hear from other users and get their opinions.

for the most part, i do still imagery, but id very much like to explore animation and video game stuff. i would like to, after a character is generated and inside of blender, be able to apply preset poses and expressions on a whim, and adjust as needed direct in the scene. as far as animating, i was under the impression we would be able to simply import animation/motion data straight into the rig somehow, but it doesnt seem to work like that, lol...

any help, advice or ideas would be great, its kind of a struggle posing figures from scratch, and even with all the nice poses offered by the community, i dont want to come off as greedy or unappreciative, but i just need "more"?!? and that only leaves us with the option to import already posed characters, and maybe start adjusting from there, but still... do you not apply poses w/i blender?!?
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Re: Help understanding rig options

Postby tomcat » Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:39 am

Greetings!

I'm just beginning to learn animation in the game engine, but I've come to the conclusion that you need a different rig for each specific situation. For example, "the makehuman default rig" is wonderful for images and video clips, but not very convenient for use in games. The large number of bones makes working with game animation very difficult.

Working with animation in games is very different from animation in video. For example, games use animation blending, which is often not required for video:

Image

The concept of working with animation in gamedreaming depends on the purpose (what kind of game you are going to make) and the engine.

All IMHO.
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Re: Help understanding rig options

Postby MatCreator » Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:30 pm

i like the default rig for simple still imagery too. i need fingers, toes, to be able to open/close eyes and mouth.the ik methos is awkward for me, im used to elbows and knees, having the body follow the hand and feet will take getting used to. i saw on some videos where people are able to switch between ik and fk, but either i dont follow or it seems that option is greyed out for me.

i have zero experience w/ animation other than having a sphere follow a path in bryce, or fooling around in reallusion stuff, and maybe they make it so easy that it can be misleading?!? but i think i follow the animation blending.

what do you do to pose figures w/i blender for stills?!? manually for each figure for each scene? i assume that for games the come with a standard walk, run, crouch, jump and idle motion that can be applied universally thru standard bipeds?
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Re: Help understanding rig options

Postby tomcat » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:55 am

MatCreator wrote:what do you do to pose figures w/i blender for stills?!?

I work very little directly in Blender. My goal is to combine diverse content into the game engine. Blender for me is a "standardization stage" so that content made in different programs can fit into the game engine without major problems.

i assume that for games the come with a standard walk, run, crouch, jump and idle motion that can be applied universally thru standard bipeds?

As far as I understand, there are no "standard moves". As well as "standard bipeds". "Relatively standard" models and movements adapted to most game engines, can be taken from the Mixamo. They should be enough for an initial study. I'm going to "slice" movements from animations on CGspeed. I suppose in about a month or so I'll post my work in the relevant thread, and if there's interest in it, I'll add to it. I have a developer diary, but it is unfortunately in Russian Image
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Re: Help understanding rig options

Postby joepal » Wed Dec 29, 2021 6:52 am

TL;DR... I personally only work with still images in blender, so not all that experienced with game engines and the finer details of animation. But my recommendations are these:

* If you want to do still image renders in blender: use the default rig + mpfb2 helpers
* If you want to work with exports for game engines: use the game engine rig. This is particularly true if you intend to use the Unity game engine.
* If you want to use animations stemming from CMU mocaps: use the CMU MB rig
* If you need the functionality of rigify but don't need facial expressions: use the game engine + convert to rigify option
* If you need the full functionality of rigify including facial expressions: add rigify rig in MPFB2 + click generate. But you'll keep an eye on weight paiting.

As woodcat says, there isn't really a one-size-fits-all for rigs. There are pros and cons and different use cases for each rig approach. The following is by no means an exhaustive list, but I'll try to list some of the approaches with why you might want to use it.

DEFAULT RIG:

Upsides:
* Best weight painting of the MH rigs
* Supports expressions (has facial rig)
* Detailed and fine-grained control due to many bones

Downsides:
* Too many bones will be cumbersome in game development
* Doesn't map well with mocap
* Doesn't work with rigify


DEFAULT RIG + MPFB2 RIG HELPERS

(additional) Upsides:
* Gives you IK options for legs, arms, hands and eyes

Downsides:
* You lose some of the finer control as some posing is calculated automatically.


GAME ENGINE

Upsides:
* Good weight paiting
* Clean and easy rig
* Maps 100% perfect on top of some game engine rig systems, for example Unity's Machinima system. This enables you to use most available animations there out of the box.

Downside:
* No facial rig, so no expressions
* Too few bones for more fine-grained control
* No automatic IK option in blender


GAME ENGINE + CONVERT TO RIGIFY IN MPFB2

(additional) Upsides:
* Weight painting retained
* You get the power of rigify, including IK

Downsides:
* Since there still are no facial bones, you don't get the rigify facial support


CMU MB

Upsides:
* Good weight painting
* Matches perfectly with the CMU mocaps, which is a large database of motion capture files

Downsides:
* No facial bones
* No IK option
* Doesn't convert to rigify


MPFB2 RIGIFY (ie adding the rigify rig to a new character in MPFB2 and then click "generate")

Upsides:
* Full power of the entire rigify system, including facial bones
* Probably the best option for animating expressions
* Works with third part rigify plugins

Downsides:
* Not compatible with MH poses and expressions
* Weight painting is still poor to crappy (could really use some help here)
* Teeth and eyes might still bug a bit
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Re: Help understanding rig options

Postby MatCreator » Wed Dec 29, 2021 9:42 am

nice! that is a lot of info to take in and digest, many thanks.

i notice in the mpfb2 panel that there are options for applying poses and partial poses... i understand this feature is "under construction", but im curious where the poses come from? will these be the poses already in the makehuman assets, or will these be new?
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Re: Help understanding rig options

Postby joepal » Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:10 pm

It is actually working as intended, but I realize it might be a bit cryptic.

If you go to create assets -> makepose, you can save the currently active pose of the active character. You can then later apply that pose to any character which has a compatible rig. Partial poses is when you make a pose from only a few selected bones.

These poses are not compatible with MH poses, so there are no available poses to download. At some point I'll try to implement a MH pose import, but the BVH format (that MH uses) is pretty arcane.
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Re: Help understanding rig options

Postby MatCreator » Wed Dec 29, 2021 8:39 pm

again, many thanks, didnt understand it that way. tested it out and worked like a charm =)

ive been doing a lot of reading and watching, so i see that posing is the same for a lot of people (difficult for still imagery), and bottom line, its only natural to want to pose your character directly. i was going thru all the different ways in which people rig, pose or animate their creations, and its kinda heavy. no matter what your workflow or process, there seems to be some kind of "inbetween" to extract a single pose or a motion file.

that may sound defeatist, but its actually very helpful understanding your goal, your toolset, and the limits and expectations of them.

that said, the reallusion line is getting a major upgrade, and i was wondering in terminology what it means when it says "supported character for auto-conversion" and lists blender... im assuming that makehuman figures are considered blender figures and that one would be able to take advantage of the reallusion toolset as the "inbetween" for managing poses and motion files in blender.

https://magazine.reallusion.com/2021/11 ... roduction/

if you scroll near the bottom where it says auto convert characters...... just wondering if that means makehuman figures will be compatible as well...
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Re: Help understanding rig options

Postby tomcat » Thu Dec 30, 2021 3:17 pm

joepal wrote:But my recommendations are these:
<…>
The following is by no means an exhaustive list…

This is a very valuable observation… it would be good to have it in the form of a certificate or a recommendation, so as not to look for it later on.

The only thing I would suggest to add to the list of CMU Face Rig. To the pluses of the CMU MB, there are face bones added here.

MatCreator wrote:that said, the reallusion line is getting a major upgrade

"reallusion line", unfortunately, is a paid program, but the idea that not only a human skeleton is needed is very true. With animal and arbitrary skeletons, Cascadeur can work.
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Re: Help understanding rig options

Postby MatCreator » Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:19 pm

as peter griffith would say regarding reallusion:

"that's how they get ya"...
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