Why not use modified full-poly mesh for clothes?

[Animations4]

Why not use modified (ie smoothed in some areas) full-poly mesh for clothes? This wouldn't have the masking problems (since it's the same topology as the regular makehuman model for the most part) and would look better. I played with the current clothes in blender and they're too low-poly for games, also games cannot solve the masking problem with masks, the mesh has to actually be where it's supposed to be

[LowBo]

Do the clothes have textures? I find low poly objects in real-time usually look good with normal maps. Clothes shouldn't be so low poly though. In a real time environment as I've heard polygon amounts don't have to make up a majority of the detail. Not as much detail that would be provided by both normal, and texture maps. The reading I get is 13,820 faces, and 27,640 in triangles on a single Make Human character. That is the object itself if triangulated would be.

As far as I've seen most game characters have a triangulated surface. I can't claim total ignorance with game development. 50+K might be a little too high. However with clothes most times you'll find they have replaced arms, or legs. So they limit their polygon budget by not having clothes over the body mesh unless it's aesthetically pleasing in some areas. You probably know all this though.

For games you want to provide performance. Rendering in Blender or any other software you can use normal, bump, displacement, texture, and high resolution models. Though if you do it defeats the purpose of using normal, and displacement maps. Rendering usually takes just as long. In real-time? Not sure. When just rendering stills or game art the same principle applies. Characters can have an immense amount of detail but most of the time I just see it as the build up for displacement maps in Z or Mud just because those models are being developed as game assets. Displacement maps can come in handy for very low res models, and normal maps come in handy for both low and higher res models.

I do like how games are doing something though. Nvidia I think it was showed dynamic model resolution. Closer you get you get a higher resolution model that uses displacement maps as well. The further away you get, the less detail. That's off point though.

[Animations4]

Do the clothes have textures? I find low poly objects in real-time usually look good with normal maps. Clothes shouldn't be so low poly though. In a real time environment as I've heard polygon amounts don't have to make up a majority of the detail. Not as much detail that would be provided by both normal, and texture maps. The reading I get is 13,820 faces, and 27,640 in triangles on a single Make Human character. That is the object itself if triangulated would be.

As far as I've seen most game characters have a triangulated surface. I can't claim total ignorance with game development. 50+K might be a little too high. However with clothes most times you'll find they have replaced arms, or legs. So they limit their polygon budget by not having clothes over the body mesh unless it's aesthetically pleasing in some areas. You probably know all this though.

For games you want to provide performance. Rendering in Blender or any other software you can use normal, bump, displacement, texture, and high resolution models. Though if you do it defeats the purpose of using normal, and displacement maps. Rendering usually takes just as long. In real-time? Not sure. When just rendering stills or game art the same principle applies. Characters can have an immense amount of detail but most of the time I just see it as the build up for displacement maps in Z or Mud just because those models are being developed as game assets. Displacement maps can come in handy for very low res models, and normal maps come in handy for both low and higher res models.

I do like how games are doing something though. Nvidia I think it was showed dynamic model resolution. Closer you get you get a higher resolution model that uses displacement maps as well. The further away you get, the less detail. That's off point though.

Games today use very highpoly meshes. Not the "vague approximations" that were once used. High poly is fine, one can always reduce in areas if needed in blender, but really ... high poly is where it's at now. Plus all the diff texture mappings.

[LowBo]

Of course. They do use high poly meshes. This is a Make Human character with nearly 30,000 triangles already. It should be easy in Blender to take the body mesh and tweak it into a clothed model that way you don't stack polygons on. Even most next gen game worlds adhere to a set poly limit for main characters, and other characters. You're not incorrect that games use high polygon models. Aiming for the best doesn't mean more polygons though. That's why you have workflows for characters that are, comparable to many in game objects very low resolution. 10k, 15k, 20k. Many great games, many next gen titles were released that used characters that didn't even exceed 10k polygons. That includes clothes, weapons, accessories.

If one is making a game, as a potential player I'd be remorse to find out I cannot play the game because no consideration was given for the persons who cannot handle game environments that exceed hundreds of thousands, even millions of polygons. The number stacks up quickly. Even 27,000 triangles times 4 equals 108,000. Times 8 equals 216,000. That's not including environment detail which isn't all run in real time.

As well, low resolution models with normal map detail look just as good side by side with the high res in a 3d application.

[Animations4]

The current clothes are too low poly and clip. Clipping can't be fixed in game with shaders (where it can be "fixed" in blender... but blender is just a means to an end and not the end of seeing your character in-game). Either the clothes .obj s have to be fixed so that no verts clip or a higher poly mesh that conforms to the model needs to be used. Stockings need the high poly mesh almost certainly. Pants and sweater can just be fixed. (but they're kinda low poly). gloves need more polys probably.

Norm etc maps cannot opperate at the edge of a mesh, if a mesh is too low poly you can see it at the edge no matter what the tricks. Also the good games were good /dispite/ the low-poly meshes: it was the game mechanics that made them good, not the model accuracy.

The current MH model looks similar in wireframe, polywise, to current game models.
Looks good.

Do you know how to animate or know anyone who does and would donate animations to MH? Then we could actually import our models. For the past 2 years all one could do is just look at them in blender. I posted the list of what animations xonotic atleast uses, I think most games use those too. Can Manuel animate?

[Manuel]

I posted the list of what animations xonotic atleast uses, I think most games use those too.

Where is? I missed it..

Can Manuel animate?

No unfortunately..admin MH and make targets already make me iper-busy. We need more contributors...

Btw, I agree about clothes resolution. Current clothes are just an experiment to see if the system work. Later we will provide better models.

Best,

Manuel

[Animations4]

Animations xonotic (and I think every other quake based game) uses I posted here: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1918

Code: Select all

dieone,dietwo,draw,duck,duckwalk,duckjump,duckidle,idle,jump,painone,paintwo,shoot,taunt,run,runbackwards,strafeleft,straferight,deadone,deadtwo,forwardright,forwardleft,backright,backleft,melee


If someone could make those anims and they could be exported ready-to-use from make human into blender... MH would suddenly become very useful and much used in games.

We just need one set of standard animations for MH and we're good.

[CADBrooke]

Of course. They do use high poly meshes. This is a Make Human character with nearly 30,000 triangles already. It should be easy in Blender to take the body mesh and tweak it into a clothed model that way you don't stack polygons on. Even most next gen game worlds adhere to a set poly limit for main characters, and other characters. You're not incorrect that games use high polygon models. Aiming for the best doesn't mean more polygons though. That's why you have workflows for characters that are, comparable to many in game objects very low resolution. 10k, 15k, 20k. Many great games, many next gen titles were released that used characters that didn't even exceed 10k polygons. That includes clothes, weapons, accessories.

If one is making a game, as a potential player I'd be remorse to find out I cannot play the game because no consideration was given for the persons who cannot handle game environments that exceed hundreds of thousands, even millions of polygons. The number stacks up quickly. Even 27,000 triangles times 4 equals 108,000. Times 8 equals 216,000. That's not including environment detail which isn't all run in real time.

As well, low resolution models with normal map detail look just as good side by side with the high res in a 3d application.

Pardon me for my the lateness of my response and my naivete, but I was curious to know how one would even create a full-poly mesh. I'm new to the realm of character/environment design and I'm wanting to eventually experiment with a plethora of textures and patterns. Any advice would be sincerely appreciated. Heck, feel free to PM me. Thanks, folks! Hope to meet you all soon!

[Manuel]

Why not use modified (ie smoothed in some areas) full-poly mesh for clothes? This wouldn't have the masking problems (since it's the same topology as the regular makehuman model for the most part) and would look better. I played with the current clothes in blender and they're too low-poly for games, also games cannot solve the masking problem with masks, the mesh has to actually be where it's supposed to be

Practically, do you mean to use targets to morph the human body in a cloth?