*Star_teeth material

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*Star_teeth material

Postby Marco_105 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:45 am

I upload a teeth material, I hope thsi can be useful in BL and MH, I put a lightsphere for it. Even I don't found the right ligtsphere for that, not so shiny but works.
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Teeth_for_star.jpg
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Re: *Star_teeth material

Postby punkduck » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:39 pm

Marco_105 wrote:I upload a teeth material, I hope thsi can be useful in BL and MH, I put a lightsphere for it. Even I don't found the right ligtsphere for that, not so shiny but works.


Since also the standard skins normally are presented with a litsphere in MakeHuman, we should change all standard teeth from phong shading to litspheres ... (looks better, I believe). I guess you took the leather litsphere. I used it also to display normal maps in MakeHuman. I don't know, if we should add a few additional ones to the standard litsphere folder, e.g. one without changing the color (litleather is doing this) and a new one to display normal maps.

Blender is not using the litspheres, as far as I know. For the teeth you can increase glossiness and decrease roughness of the glossy shader.

To make it perfect, teeth and gum need two different materials in Blender. Fortunately the teeth can be selected without the gum and you can create e.g. an additional pearl-white material for them.
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Re: *Star_teeth material

Postby Marco_105 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:04 pm

Thanks for your tips, I upload recently another material for lightsphere special "teeth", I hope this could be the answer.
The Matcap in BL do same thing the lightsphere in MH, not for editing just for see what your design look like. In BL, however it's cover all your design, in MH that belong per assets.

Maybe you mean this assets don't belong to a lightsphere with it ? Don't look so far, it's possible ! I use lit_leather as you know, with 0.0 'AdditiveShading'.

A nice place to be :
http://www.makehumancommunity.org/conte ... phere.html
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Re: *Star_teeth material

Postby blindsaypatten » Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:35 am

punkduck wrote:Since also the standard skins normally are presented with a litsphere in MakeHuman, we should change all standard teeth from phong shading to litspheres ... (looks better, I believe).

My very limited understanding of litspheres is that they are a simplified way of doing shading, basically a point on an object is shaded the same as the point on the litsphere where the normal is the same. I don't think litspheres take shadowing from surrounding geometry into account, so in the case of teeth a tooth at the front that is being directly lit gets shaded the same as a tooth that is located in the deep dark recesses of the back of the mouth. This creates the illusion that there are light sources inside the mouth lighting up the back teeth, which looks a little weird. Actually, the same applies to the insides of the cheeks which are lit up as brightly as if they were exterior. Am I right or wrong about this?

punkduck wrote:To make it perfect, teeth and gum need two different materials in Blender.

I thought this would be a perfect application of my multiple materials per object code, but when I tried to make a tooth material I wasn't able to significantly improve on using the diffuse texture beyond some color adjustment. The only real benefit was being able to apply different RGB Curves nodes to the gums and teeth so I could adjust the color of the gums and the teeth independently. I was hoping to find a way to make both the teeth and the gums be slightly transparent where they are thinnest. But Blender materials seem to describe the surface independent of the depth of the material behind the surface. I don't know how to make something like a cloudy substance that is transparent when thin and more opaque when thicker, what I normally would think of as translucent. Perhaps it suffices to just "paint" the darker shading at the thin points into the diffuse texture? Since it gets rendered back to an image anyway it shouldn't make much difference, especially where there is no light source behind the teeth.

Anyway, would you happen to have a good tooth material?

I found these CG teeth athat are quite good, although I would quibble slightly about the shape of the lower incisors, I think the front face is usually significantly flatter than this. Probably the most obvious thing is that teeth aren't smooth the way that MH teeth are. I guess some sort of normal map or displacement map is called for?
Image
Real teeth (with veneer?)
Image
Cycles render of MH teeth:
RenderedTeeth.png
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Re: *Star_teeth material

Postby Marco_105 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:41 pm

It's look good. But depend of detail you agree to allowed to that business. Lot of details, lot of time to wait for your mesh, no ?
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Re: *Star_teeth material

Postby blindsaypatten » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:02 pm

Marco_105 wrote:It's look good. But depend of detail you agree to allowed to that business. Lot of details, lot of time to wait for your mesh, no ?


I'm not sure that I've parsed that correctly but I think the main issue is a matter of more detailed textures rather than a more detailed mesh.
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Re: *Star_teeth material

Postby Marco_105 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:07 pm

Yes, I have understood now what you mean, I have worked on the litsphere and on the base mesh, that was my purpose on it but next I have to work on the texture itself, you're right !
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Re: *Star_teeth material

Postby Marco_105 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:14 pm

I was hoping to find a way to make both the teeth and the gums be slightly transparent where they are thinnest. But Blender materials seem to describe the surface independent of the depth of the material behind the surface. I don't know how to make something like a cloudy substance that is transparent when thin and more opaque when thicker, what I normally would think of as translucent. Perhaps it suffices to just "paint" the darker shading at the thin points into the diffuse texture? Since it gets rendered back to an image anyway it shouldn't make much difference, especially where there is no light source behind the teeth.


For me it's sound complicate for nothing except if you want a perfect close rendering !
BL be able to rendering in transparent and translucency, you have SSS shading but it's cost a lot of rendering time !
You have also the possibility of reliable texture to shader in the way you don't want the shader in some part specifically, and finally the crevice paint which allow you to paint some part of your mesh.
yes, you have enought tools in BL, I think so.
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Re: *Star_teeth material

Postby blindsaypatten » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:27 pm

Marco_105 wrote:For me it's sound complicate for nothing except if you want a perfect close rendering !
BL be able to rendering in transparent and translucency, you have SSS shading but it's cost a lot of rendering time !
You have also the possibility of reliable texture to shader in the way you don't want the shader in some part specifically, and finally the crevice paint which allow you to paint some part of your mesh.
yes, you have enought tools in BL, I think so.


I think that you are absolutely right that it isn't worth a great deal of effort unless you want a photorealistic closeup. I'm not sure if the ability to independently shade the gums and teeth is worth creating the second material. I was just hoping I could do something more dramatic.

I tried using the transparent and translucent nodes and subsurface scattering. The problem with transparent and translucent is that they only model the surface, whether you have a two-dimensional plane or a cube it looks the same. And in any case, with no lighting behind the teeth they mostly just make the surface darker as they let light through instead of reflecting it. In order to get the effect I had to put an opaque surface inside the tooth so that light would be reflected back out. But it still didn't look great. Interestingly, the main effect of subsurface scattering was to lighten up the crevices between teeth!

I've never looked into it but I think in order to get real translucent effect you need to do some sort of volumetric rendering, possibly using the volume input on the material output node? A similar use case is smoke or mist, a thin layer of smoke is almost transparent but a sufficiently thick layer can be opaque. If I were sufficiently motivated I would look up how that is done. But I don't think I am at the moment.

Anyway, thanks for bringing up some interesting questions.
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Re: *Star_teeth material

Postby Marco_105 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:23 pm

Yes , organic shader with transparency, translucency, etc... is a whole job !
You have to think also in which definition you are rendering too, because in 2048 px I think, it's not enough for see the difference part of your texture.
After you can an reducing by Photoshop or whatever.
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