Fixing the MakeClothes Targets

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Fixing the MakeClothes Targets

Postby MTKnife » Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:10 am

I've just uploaded a new version of the MakeClothes "Average Female" to "User contributed assets" (I've been working on this a while, but just figured out how to use MakeTarget properly :D). What I've done is to pull the centerline vertices between the buttocks on the skirts and tights helper objects outwards, making them even with the vertices to the left and right: this should eliminate the "wedgies" that plague skirts and pants made with MakeClothes.

I plan to add fixed versions of the other three targets ASAP.
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Re: Fixing the MakeClothes Targets

Postby joepal » Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:59 am

Thanks, that's good work!
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Re: Fixing the MakeClothes Targets

Postby a.g. » Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:08 am

I don't really understand how targets and clothes work, so I wonder how exactly fixing only the MakeClothes target works? Isn't it logical that both the MakeClothes and MakeHuman targets itself need fixing?

Incidentally, it seems the targets in MC are already slightly different than those in MH data; I wonder if that causes any problems.
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Re: Fixing the MakeClothes Targets

Postby MTKnife » Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:59 am

a.g. wrote:I don't really understand how targets and clothes work, so I wonder how exactly fixing only the MakeClothes target works? Isn't it logical that both the MakeClothes and MakeHuman targets itself need fixing?

Incidentally, it seems the targets in MC are already slightly different than those in MH data; I wonder if that causes any problems.


The MakeHuman targets are used to define the extremes of the "Modeling" sliders in MakeHuman. By contrast, the MakeClothes targets are used only to define clothes objects. The MC ones are based on MH targets, but different: their body sections should be identical to the MH targets', but they also include the "helper objects", which are sections of mesh ("tights", "skirt", etc.) used to create and fit clothes and hair.

Thus, the MC and MH targets shouldn't be the same, nor should they differ only slightly. But could you elaborate on what you mean?
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Re: Fixing the MakeClothes Targets

Postby a.g. » Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:44 am

MTKnife wrote:The MakeHuman targets are used to define the extremes of the "Modeling" sliders in MakeHuman. By contrast, the MakeClothes targets are used only to define clothes objects. The MC ones are based on MH targets, but different: their body sections should be identical to the MH targets', but they also include the "helper objects", which are sections of mesh ("tights", "skirt", etc.) used to create and fit clothes and hair.

Thus, the MC and MH targets shouldn't be the same, nor should they differ only slightly. But could you elaborate on what you mean?


Actually, MH targets also have all those helper things in them; as I understand the whole point of those helpers is that they are also supposed to be deformed by all the targets in an appropriate way, so clothes can bind to them and follow the shape.

Looking at the source control history, the last time MC targets were updated is May 10, while MH ones were changed on May 12 and 29. If you load both versions of female targets and compare, there are differences most noticeable in the shoulder and hip bone areas.
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Re: Fixing the MakeClothes Targets

Postby MTKnife » Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:35 pm

Let me look when I get home. But yes, you might have to replace both.
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Re: Fixing the MakeClothes Targets

Postby MTKnife » Fri Dec 11, 2015 4:38 am

OK...that took some effort.

I assume you're referring to the "master" targets in data/targets/macrodetails, right? I had some trouble finding them, because they don't exist as separate files in the executable version of the app (that's the one I use--I don't want to have to type "python" every time I run it, among other things). It does look like they include helper objects, since they've got the same number of vertices as the MakeClothes targets.

So, all kinds of bad news here:

  • Many if not most people don't have those targets as separate files. Because they don't have them as separate files, all of those people will be unable to replace the targets in their installations of MakeHuman, which in itself makes my revised targets pretty useless.
  • Even worse, the fact that the app relies on (more or less identical) targets in both MakeClothes and MakeHuman means that people who do replace both files will probably screw up all the old clothes. Indeed, if the developers changed the targets in the official version of the app (I filed a bug report a few weeks ago asking for just this), they would invalidate all of the existing clothes, which would probably make the fix not worth the trouble. The only way to do it correctly would be to include both old and new targets, and add a flag in the MakeClothes output for clothes made with the new version.
Since you've apparently got the Python version, could you try replacing the one or more of the "macrodetails" targets with my modified version, and let me know how it affects the existing clothes? My guess is that doing this will create an outward bulge on the backs of skirts and pants. If you can confirm that that's what happens, I'll delete the revised targets from "User contributed assets".
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Re: Fixing the MakeClothes Targets

Postby a.g. » Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:26 am

Putting your target into MH does indeed cause a bulge on skirts, so they will all have to be re-adjusted and re-exported.

Invalidating clothes may still be worth it though, seeing as 1.1 is not released yet, but only for a complete overhaul of the helpers in targets. It seems that a number of them treat the helper geometry as afterthought and thus cause weird deformations. For instance, default skirts look perfectly smooth with only the base shape, but if you tweak the buttocks volume slider a bulge suddenly appears in the middle. The slider for horizontal distance between breasts changes the tights helper in totally nonsensical way - basically only affecting vertices between breasts, so looking at the tights layer they seem to just grow inwards instead of moving. And the skirt helper in the base female target actually has a small ridge artifact in the middle all the way in front and back of it, not just between buttocks; and also some weird larger scale dents and bulges.

Re python, for linux there is a script that runs it for you, so maybe they can make a bat file for windows too.
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Re: Fixing the MakeClothes Targets

Postby duststorm » Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:41 am

Interesting.
Perhaps these fixes could be integrated in the software in time.
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Re: Fixing the MakeClothes Targets

Postby MTKnife » Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:54 am

a.g. wrote:Putting your target into MH does indeed cause a bulge on skirts, so they will all have to be re-adjusted and re-exported.

Invalidating clothes may still be worth it though, seeing as 1.1 is not released yet, but only for a complete overhaul of the helpers in targets. It seems that a number of them treat the helper geometry as afterthought and thus cause weird deformations. For instance, default skirts look perfectly smooth with only the base shape, but if you tweak the buttocks volume slider a bulge suddenly appears in the middle. The slider for horizontal distance between breasts changes the tights helper in totally nonsensical way - basically only affecting vertices between breasts, so looking at the tights layer they seem to just grow inwards instead of moving. And the skirt helper in the base female target actually has a small ridge artifact in the middle all the way in front and back of it, not just between buttocks; and also some weird larger scale dents and bulges.


I didn't see the ridge or other stuff, but I believe you. The breasts problem seems harder to deal with.

One of the biggest problems is the fact that that the centerline vertices are so critically important--I wonder if you could make weighting work with a larger group of vertices.

Re python, for linux there is a script that runs it for you, so maybe they can make a bat file for windows too.


Yeah, a BAT file is easy, but I just didn't want to bother. :) Having the Python version would, however, make it easier to play around with.

I'm about to delete the targets in "User contributed assets" (though I can certainly provide them to anyone who wants to play with them), and I've linked this thread from the Bugtracker issue I opened a few weeks ago (http://bugtracker.makehumancommunity.org/issues/977).
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