Making MakeHuman Avatars for Opensimulator and Second Life

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Re: Making MakeHuman Avatars for Opensimulator and Second Li

Postby duststorm » Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:01 pm

MealeaYing wrote:Its funny about Blenders UI, one of the best Blender tutorials authors out there, Andrew Price, offered up a LOT of GREAT suggestions and ideas about how to make it more usable, he was screamed at so hard that he backpedaled and retracted a lot of what he said.

Look at the video of his presentation on Blender conference. It didnt exactly go as you are telling it.
Andrew had ideas and worked up a concept. Of course there was a lot of positive and negative feedback on it, UI debates often take on religious proportions in the blender scene (though I think the same would happen on Zbrush/Mudbox/Maya/MAX communities...).

The important conclusion he came to, and he explains this in his talk, is that he simplified matters too much. Sure his mockups made sense in the limited and deliberate context he had thought up for them. He also realized that in the end he was repeating all the dont-do's of UI design, and if anything, if one is to have success at redesigning the UI of a project as complex as Blender, they will need to approach this the right way.

The only constructive thing to do in such a situation is objectively try to analyze and tackle problems one at a time, educating oneself in the art of UI design, the proper way. Which I think the Blender community is handling very well. They have started a UI team, whose progress you can follow right here. (you might be interested to know that Andrew Price is actually part of that team)
So if anything, I think you can say that the Blender organization is actually taking this seriously. Which is probably more than you can say from other commercial software.
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Re: Making MakeHuman Avatars for Opensimulator and Second Li

Postby MealeaYing » Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:35 pm

You are absolutely correct, I paraphrased the whole thing into a sentence or two.
Thanks for that link, I think its terrific that he is on the team to fix this stuff.
I was comparing Blender to Sculptris which again is totally unfair, but to me is sort of the goal of a UI, something that can be learned not just quickly but by trying it out. Actually MakeHuman is like that, you learn it by trying things to see what they do and usually something interesting happens. THAT is on of the things that makes it good, reading the documentation should only be needed if there is a problem and there should be as few problems as possible if not none (that will be fun huh??).
You are also correct about commercial companies doing as they please. ZBrush has a perfect example of this: a while ago Pixologic introduced something called insert mesh which allowed you to take any object and add it or subtract it seamlessly to or from another object. It was (and halfway still is) fantastic, however they did something strange and distressing later, they made the object you were subtracting invisible (actually it looks like its normals are flipped but its much more and worse then that) so you cannot see what you are doing, they refuse to put it back and so a "negative insert mesh" is FAR less useful. Why? I no longer use this tool as its nearly impossible to position the bloody things with out a LOT of extra work, what was once a wonderful tool is not half ruined. If I want a sphere shaped hole in something its EASIER to sculpt it!! This is not good planning in my opinion but in Pixologic's case this is also unusual and sort of strange leading me to think there is some sort of a coding problem going on that's proving hard to fix, that or they just developed a mean streak.

This image has two objects that I made in less than ten minuets (each) using insert mesh:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/763 ... ereFun.jpg
They are both just quick sketches, almost effortless (and fun!) to make and yet Pixologic changed the UI and now it would take a LONG time to plan out and make something like these, for me it simply isn't going to happen.

As I said before, I love Blender but hate the UI, I struggle still (after TWENTY YEARS! oh my god...) just to use the mouse correctly and after a day of working with Blender my hands hurt so much I have trouble using them for other things. And that's just the mouse.
The idea that Andrew Price could actually help implement even a few of his suggestions makes me ecstatic!
I for one cant wait.
I did it, blame me, its my fault!
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Re: Making MakeHuman Avatars for Opensimulator and Second Li

Postby duststorm » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:34 pm

MealeaYing wrote:I was comparing Blender to Sculptris which again is totally unfair, but to me is sort of the goal of a UI, something that can be learned not just quickly but by trying it out.

Simply put, this is not possible.
You can make the deliberate choice of limiting the functionality of a program with the goal of keeping the user interface simple, which is what sculptris does by sticking to one specific task. Or you can build a tool that will be useful to many people and a wide range of different tasks. This is what Blender does, and why it is embraced by so many people.

The blender UI is not easy, because the software is not easy. The best they can do is make it consistent so that things once learned can be applied to other subjects.
Whether to stick to things that other programs do, is largely a subjective debate. There's the tradeoff between being fast to pick up the first time, but being tedious after that (maya and max actually require you to click a button in the gui every time you want to move the camera!), or being to fast to work with once you have accustomed yourself a bit with the tool (which in my opinion is a must, blender is a complex tool, just accept this. One does not step into a car for the first time in their lives and drive 50km without first having accustomed oneself to it at least a bit, either. Even if it is an American car with automatic transmission and only two pedals ;) )
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Re: Making MakeHuman Avatars for Opensimulator and Second Li

Postby MealeaYing » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:23 pm

duststorm wrote:
MealeaYing wrote:I was comparing Blender to Sculptris which again is totally unfair, but to me is sort of the goal of a UI, something that can be learned not just quickly but by trying it out.

Simply put, this is not possible.
You can make the deliberate choice of limiting the functionality of a program with the goal of keeping the user interface simple, which is what sculptris does by sticking to one specific task. Or you can build a tool that will be useful to many people and a wide range of different tasks. This is what Blender does, and why it is embraced by so many people.

The blender UI is not easy, because the software is not easy. The best they can do is make it consistent so that things once learned can be applied to other subjects.
Whether to stick to things that other programs do, is largely a subjective debate. There's the tradeoff between being fast to pick up the first time, but being tedious after that (maya and max actually require you to click a button in the gui every time you want to move the camera!), or being to fast to work with once you have accustomed yourself a bit with the tool (which in my opinion is a must, blender is a complex tool, just accept this. One does not step into a car for the first time in their lives and drive 50km without first having accustomed oneself to it at least a bit, either. Even if it is an American car with automatic transmission and only two pedals ;) )


GRIN!!!
But but but....
It HAS to be possible! Its just software! Right?
All a GUI is is a picture of stuff that allows you to control bits of software, that's it, its just a mater of finding the right way of drawing the picture, in blenders case its a scribble in a lot of places.
Proof that it CAN be done is the sculpting tools, they are totally different now and they almost work (for me anyway, I just don't like how they "feel" at the moment) but a LOT of people can use them now where as in the past they were very hard to even find. I think maybe that I could do the same thing to the simulation stuff (at least making the "picture". The simulation stuff starts off ok, but than goes nuts as soon as you think its going to "just work". Im not fond of needing the Domain thing for stuff like fluid simulations but that not the real problem, the real problem is more simple, if I make a cloth simulation I hit the play button in the animation pallet to make the simulation "bake" in the fluid simulation I have to find and hit the Bake button. That's not the worst of it though, its in essence un-savable (in a weird sense) as well as its writing a godawful number of files somewhere where I don't want stuff being written and if I am not paying strict attention saving stuff more than once destroys the last one replacing it with the new, this is BAD. it could at the very least ASK me first. The domain thing is confusing and ought to go away at some point but I am guessing there is some pressing need for it at the moment, again this is software, the user should not need to take into consideration programming issues. I can say this because I figured out cloth simulation from scratch, than tried fluid and failed, then after looking at tutorials I learned more about both and got better at them, but fluid is still aggravating, smoke is just out, I cant make it work and some of the soft and rigid body stuff break so easily I don't mess with them even though I desperately WANT them. I think that if I could get rigid and softbody stuff to work a few times I could figure out how to make that easier too and with out sacrificing functionality. Those two are another example of me forgetting some little thing in a long process and having it not work or breaking what was working, UNDO being inconsistent makes this worse; undo in object mode conflicts with undo in edit mode and is imply appalling, I want to undo the last thing I DID, not the last state something was in before I do the serious work in edit mode. This is totally fixable and if it isn't there is something profoundly wrong, but I think its fixable, it has to be. I switch to object mode to see how something looks, and sometimes move it or something, I do not always remember to NOT EVEN THINK of using undo, this is user hostility at its most violent.
Now...
Since you brought it up:
My driving; we use MPH here so I will translate, 50 km is NOTHING, its only 31 miles per hour. The first time I drove (on the street) I was in an VW bug and I was caught doing 156km (or 97 mph) on a little squiggly road near where I grew up, I was 12 years old and that is the only thing that saved me from going to jail I had to tape blocks of wood onto the pedals to reach them). By the time I was old enough to drive legally I realized that I considered the gas pedal to be an ON switch and that the horn was better than the breaks. I stopped driving by choice and never got a licence, I am a maniac pure and simple and the world is a better place with out me driving around in it. Besides, I get road rage riding my bicycle, people in cars drive like idiots!

One last thing about Blender, or more to the point MakeHuman and Blender; you guys have done a stunning job on the rigging! I cant figure out which type of rigging I like best, its all so much fun!! AND its teaching me a LOT!

Ok too much typing!

Cheers!
Mealea

Cheers
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Re: Making MakeHuman Avatars for Opensimulator and Second Li

Postby duststorm » Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:02 pm

MealeaYing wrote:It HAS to be possible! Its just software! Right?
All a GUI is is a picture of stuff that allows you to control bits of software, that's it, its just a mater of finding the right way of drawing the picture, in blenders case its a scribble in a lot of places.

I think this is a good analogy: Have you ever tried drawing a diagram of something large and complex?
At first it can look very neat and organized, but then you realize the picture does not explain everything, and precise as you are, you start adding details from reality into the drawing. Before you know it, the overview will be gone, with lines and arrows being entangled in a terrible web.
The only option you have is draw separate diagrams, each covering a subset of the features, or a different context. Then you start drawing diagrams that explain how the different sub-diagrams connect, and how they should be interpreted in the large context.
Soon you will have something that is perhaps clear, but still is very large and takes quite some time to get accustomed to. It might result in a book of 100s of pages, that once you take the time to read through, will make perfect sense. But don't expect to just dig in for 10 minutes and be able to make sense of it all.

Some complexity just cannot be reduced to nothing.

Although it never hurts to follow the ideal and try. ;)

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction." -- Albert Einstein


I am not completely certain whether every concept can be reduced to something simple. And even if it is possible, we have far too few geniuses in this world to make it happen. So I guess we'll have to be thankful with what we can do.
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Re: Making MakeHuman Avatars for Opensimulator and Second Li

Postby leaparnall » Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:52 am

Hi,

I try to make a mesh avatar using Makehuman and blender for SecondLife.

I used the info in this thread but unfortunately the result is not good :(

I use Makehuman and I exported in DAE … this is OK
I use Blender and import the DAE (from Makehuman) … this is OK
I export from blender un DAE (using the export options mentioned SL+ Opensim Rig presets and no deform bone only)

when I upload the avatar in second life the result seem bad (unfortunately I can't upload pic on the forum)…
The arms and legs are distorded when I wear it (no when I rez on the ground)

I can see this too in the preview when I choose "Skin weights"

is someone may help me?
where I did a mistake?

I use blender 2.71
and makehuman 1.0.2



thank you.
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Re: Making MakeHuman Avatars for Opensimulator and Second Li

Postby duststorm » Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:45 pm

leaparnall wrote:The arms and legs are distorded when I wear it (no when I rez on the ground)

where I did a mistake?

I think you did not apply the T pose as rest pose.
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Re: Making MakeHuman Avatars for Opensimulator and Second Li

Postby leaparnall » Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:29 pm

Ah OK!

I presume in blender.

And How I must do that?

Thank you.
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Re: Making MakeHuman Avatars for Opensimulator and Second Li

Postby Déesse » Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:31 pm

I'm afraid you will not be successful :cry: It only worked properly with the older version 1.0.0
Next week I'll find the time to make some more tests, and maybe I can give you the older version for download.
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Re: Making MakeHuman Avatars for Opensimulator and Second Li

Postby duststorm » Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:31 pm

Déesse wrote:It only worked properly with the older version 1.0.0
maybe I can give you the older version for download.

You can find it here: http://download.tuxfamily.org/makehuman/releases/1.0.0/
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